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Kuji’s Krazy Log II | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 273 of 706 24 July 2013 at 8:47am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Minna no Nihongo should be available in the big bookstores you find in the center of the big cities, for example, Kinokuniya. It has to be the big ones, the same ones that also have English-language books (novels, etc., in English). Oh, and to be fair, the Genki books are not that bad. The dialogs are actually very helpful and cover different subjects. If you don't mind not having an answer key, just do the activities that you can do on your own, and it is a nice beginners' course. I know of a lot of people that used the Genki series and say good things about it. IAIJ, on the other hand, requires a bit more patience. The grammar sections are useful at times and at other times not so much (my wife, who is Japanese, told me on more than one occasion "I don't know anybody who uses this phrase" or "This is good only in formal situations, not for everyday conversation".) The dialogs do have some useful colloquial expressions, but at the same time they deal with subjects like study abroad at university, homestays, finding part-time work as a student - see a theme there? So the dialogs may not be that interesting to listen to over and over, even if they are useful. Edited by kujichagulia on 24 July 2013 at 8:55am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mike245 Triglot Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 6964 days ago 303 posts - 408 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Cantonese Studies: French, German, Mandarin, Khmer | Message 274 of 706 24 July 2013 at 11:04am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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That's good to keep in mind. I imagine that a book geared towards college students
studying abroad would just make me feel old. I'll look out for big bookstores when I'm in Tokyo. I have a few days entirely to myself, so I plan to explore the city. I am actually glad that I can't easily get any of these books in Hong Kong, since it'll force me to ask myself whether I want to continue studying Japanese after my trip. Given my personal history of picking up and dropping various languages over the years, I need to think hard before I spend too much money on books that might just end up gathering dust on my bookshelf. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 275 of 706 30 July 2013 at 7:36am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I wrote over here about how I've hit a wall in my studies. You can read about it in
detail there, but basically, I have not been able to get myself to study properly. Things I used to do before - textbooks, podcasts, reading articles, etc. - now seem so difficult to just start doing. The motivation and want is still there, but it's troublesome to do my usual activities now. Based on the advice in that thread, I think I need to back off a bit. Not quit - no way - but rather take it easy and go at a slower pace. I found out that when I study, I study intensely. And I've been doing that for 12 months. I didn't think I was studying intensely, because I only study Japanese for about an hour a day on average, and Portuguese for 30-45 minutes a day. But I'm wondering now if it's not about the amount of time that I study intensely. Rather, when I do anything language-related, it's all intense. And by intense, I mean this: every piece of Japanese/Portuguese that I see or hear needs to be broken down, learned, confirmed in a dictionary or online, and put into an SRS. In other words, I'm treating every aspect of my language study like a serious university course. In more alternative words, I'm not enjoying the language; I'm studying it. Now, there's nothing wrong with studying a language. But as a self-learner, if I'm going to be in it for the long haul, I need to make time to just enjoy the language and engage with it. So, what does that mean? I think it means this: go ahead and study out of a textbook. But when I read articles or books, or watch TV, etc., just read/watch. Just enjoy the ocean of language flowing over me. Enjoy being one with Japanese, or Portuguese. Now, that sounds very new age, but I'm not the most eloquent when it comes to expressing my thoughts in English. And yes, I teach English at a high school. <laughs> Before today I was very skeptical of just reading something, or watching a drama or listening to the radio without looking up stuff I didn't know. I felt like I wasn't learning anything. Man, what an idiot I was. Because, see, this is the point about extensive reading or extensive watching or extensive listening. It's not so much about learning new things, but rather, it's about reinforcing what you already know! That seems so obvious, but it didn't really click in my pea brain until today. Just a moment while I slap myself a few times. <slap> <slap> <slap> <bite lower lip> <slap> Idiot. Okay, sorry about that. Now, back to the log. In the link above, I talked about how I was listening to an episode of a Portuguese radionovela from Deutsche Welle with bilingual Portuguese/English text. At first, even though I had the English translation, I was looking up every unknown Portuguese word I came across in a dictionary, in order to put it into my SRS and to get a deeper understanding of the Portuguese. That became quite tedious, and it literally took me months to get through a few paragraphs. Then one day, I just said, "Forget it," and just enjoyed listening to the Portuguese audio while looking at the Portuguese. I didn't look up anything. I just glanced at the English text a few times to get the gist of the story, but I just listened to that first episode a few times. I said in the thread above that I didn't learn any Portuguese, but doing it that way was much, much more enjoyable than looking up every single unknown word. But I completely overlooked the fact that there were a few Portuguese words that I did know! That should be cause for celebration. There are words that I know and don't have to look up in the dictionary because I already learned them. The biggest problem I have when learning a language is not appreciating these moments. It's like speeding down the Pacific Coast Highway in the western United States, from Seattle to San Diego, with your mind only on San Diego, without taking the time to look at the beautiful scenery all around you. Sometimes a person needs to slow down and enjoy the moment. Early in my Japanese learning period, years ago, I made it a point to often have the radio on, or the TV, when I was at home. Later, when I bought an iPod and podcasting was becoming popular, I put some Japanese news podcasts on my iPod and listened to them away from home. Sure, I hardly understood anything. But I was "one with the language", for lack of better words. I was enjoying being with the language. Later, as I learned more words, I started to recognize those words on TV and in the podcasts, and that was exciting. When I started Portuguese, I did the same thing. However, I stopped doing those things after reading the thread linked here in one of my log posts. That made me think that what I was doing was a waste of time. So I stopped listening to and watching stuff I didn't know most of, and concentrated on finding things I could understand 90%. Basically, I limited myself to textbook audio and ***Pod101.com podcasts. Looking at my log, it seems that studying started to gradually become stressful after that decision. Coincidence? So I'm going to start getting back into that. If I want to sit and watch Japanese TV, who cares if I don't understand most of it? If I want to listen to online Brazilian news radio, or play the RTP television stream from Portugal, than dadgumit, that's what I'm going to do, and I don't care what you think! <laughs> And yep, I'm going to read that online article with a pop-up dictionary, and I'm just going to enjoy reading it. Yeah, I might not "learn" anything doing that, but I will reinforce what I already know, and I will enjoy it. Edited by kujichagulia on 30 July 2013 at 7:41am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5158 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 276 of 706 31 July 2013 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Kuji, I already wrote something at the other topic you posted, but I'd also suggest you to check my Papiamento log to see how I distribute activities and how I do 4 short-time-consuming activities each day for it (I don't have textbooks I could use anymore). I think you could do something similar for Portuguese.
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| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5254 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 277 of 706 01 August 2013 at 1:21am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Kuji, as you know from my posts, I am not a fan of studying a language as if it were a "thing", like a germ under a microscope.
I think you'll learn a lot, but it won't be as immediately apparent to you. It takes time but before you know it, it will snowball. Where people mess up following a multi-track method is not doing it enough. Expugnator's log shows a good mix of methods and engagement with multiple native resources. It's very similar to what I did and am doing with Haitian Creole, though I got tired of writing the log. You'll find that the more you expose yourself to multiple resources the more connections you'll make, the more synergy you'll have and the quicker you will reach that critical mass. It's slow going at first, that's why I started with "Wayne Drop" a pamphlet designed to teach elementary students about the Everglades and "Genesis" in Haitian Creole along with "Chita Pa Bay", twitter and VOA Kreyòl. Soon, the going gets a little quicker, at least for a related western language. That "slow-going" at first is what makes a lot of people think there's no way the method will be effective because it is hard and tedious at first, but it gets better. There's no need to look up every word and stick it in Anki. By doing that you disrupt your momentum to such an extent that it becomes less effective. That's what's good about bilingual texts and hover or pop-up dictionaries, a glance is all you need to either confirm or find out a meaning. As you go forward, you'll rely on them less and less. What I do doesn't totally eschew courses, keep at your DLI, it's a good, well rounded and effective course for Brazilian Portuguese. To me the course is just one of the many tools I use in learning. It often helps me to see a little more clearly what I am already seeing in the real world and fix it into my mind. To my way of thinking, focusing or depending too much on the course tend to limit your exposure to the language in a way that is less effective- hence, all the posts about "What do I do now that I've finished Assimil?" and "Is there an Assimil part deux? (there is for some languages)". Using multiple resources and native content helps you to make the connections on your own that the course is trying, somewhat less effectively, to get you to make. The more opportunity you have to mindfully observe and interact with the language, the more chance you have to make those connections. I think, in the very beginning, obviously courses will be a larger percentage of your learning. In my way of learning, I decrease that percentage as quickly as I can. As time goes on the course will reach a plateau at a level of say 15-25% and eventually fade to nothing. Before it fades to nothing, you still use it but you notice that your learning is taking place more elsewhere and your course becomes more of an aid and more effective as you use it less, ironically. There's less need for anki and other srs systems because you are getting that repetition in other ways. All of the above is dependent upon enduring some amount of hardship at first and trusting that things will get better as you move forward. It's very dependent on keeping your momentum going. My way isn't for everyone. It may be totally wrong for non-western languages. Still, I hope that maybe some of what I do may help you and others, at least with Portuguese or another western language. Think US Chinese Restaurant buffet- a little from here, a little from there and you may get a satisfying meal. Edited by iguanamon on 01 August 2013 at 1:27am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 278 of 706 01 August 2013 at 2:31am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Thank you, Expugnator, as always. I have to admit that I haven't followed your Papiamento log for a few weeks now. I will go there and read up when I have a chance. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 279 of 706 01 August 2013 at 3:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||
iguanamon, how do you always know what to say? Seriously, a lot of people can learn from users like you, emk, The Real CZ, etc.
I think that it wasn't about doing the multi-track method enough, but rather, I was doing it wrong. In addition to DLI and my Japanese textbook, I was getting the articles, watching more TV shows, etc. But I was using them in the wrong way. My attitude was, "How many new vocabulary words can I get out of this? What can I put into Anki? What new grammar points can I learn?" It should have been, "What is this article about? What is this episode going to be about? What is this character doing/has done/is going to do next? Wow, this is interesting! And if I happen to learn something new, that's good, too." I had two very short Japanese stories (and I mean two or three paragraphs) from Hukumusume.com downloaded to my Android device as PDFs. Yesterday on the train ride home, I read them without looking at my dictionary. There were many words that I didn't now. I could guess at the meaning of one or two kanji, but I couldn't pronounce them. But I just skipped what I didn't know and read through the story. Based on the words I did know, I could get the gist of both stories, and with one of them I actually went into that "reading zone" - you know, when you get excited about the story and you are looking forward to what happens next. With the other story, I didn't get into the "zone" because the plot twisted on a word I did not know. I highlighted it to look it up later. I also highlighted the unknown words that repeated. I still haven't looked up those words yet, and I'm not even sure that I will. But it was certainly more enjoyable than what I was doing before, even though I didn't understand everything. I read through two (very) short stories on the train ride home yesterday, when before it would take me two or three train rides to get through one, because of all the dictionary lookups, etc.
I guess that was my problem with this; there's no instant gratification. If I see a new word or grammar point, I want to take it right away and make it mine. I want to be able to use the new word I just saw right away in my own conversations. But you really can't do that with this method. This is more of a long-term thing. I think that, for me, it's a matter of letting go and trusting that this is going to work.
Don't sell yourself short here. I know of at least three people who have learned Japanese using your "way". The Real CZ here at HTLAL gave up Anki long ago and just read, read, read, took in native materials, etc., and he's doing fine. I don't think he's around anymore, but an HTLAL user named ericspinelli did it that way. A non-HTLAL guy named Tae Kim, who has a somewhat famous website for learning Japanese grammar (http://www.guidetojapanese.org), did it that way. He read a lot - preferably online using a pop-up dictionary, so that he didn't have to go through the pain of manually looking up kanji - and learned a lot of Japanese over the years, so much that he can easily advise many of us Japanese learners on the finer points of grammar. He also said that he hates flashcards and did not agree with SRS software as it exists to day. So, it can be done with non-western languages. It may take longer (I think Tae Kim has been studying Japanese for at least 10 years), but it is doable. Anyway, this is my little plan from this point forward. Go ahead and study the textbooks intensively, analyze everything, and put important stuff into Anki. Textbooks are designed for this anyway. But be sure to balance it with exposure to native materials, and use those materials extensively. With those, keep any intensive activity to a bare minimum. Use a pop-up dictionary or translation website when I am online, but when I am offline, look up a word only when it helps keep the story going, for example. Edited by kujichagulia on 01 August 2013 at 3:07am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 280 of 706 01 August 2013 at 7:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I've gotten back into studying, so let me try to bring back regular updates. This is what I did in the past 24 hours or so:
Japanese - Reviewed the first dialog of Ch. 12 of An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese, or IAIJ - Worked through and chorused with the second dialog of IAIJ Ch. 12. Wrote down new words - Read through the 今日は何の日？ for July 31st at hukumusume.com. Did not look up any unknown words; just used a pop-up dictionary - Did Anki reviews Portuguese - Started on DLI Lesson 23. Went through the perception drill, dialog, comprehension drill, then did a few of the repetition drills. Wrote down some new words. - While walking to work from the train station, listened to a Portuguese news podcast from Radio France International. - I also had an opportunity to do my work this morning by myself in the language laboratory, so I turned on a live stream of CBN Radio out of Rio de Janeiro. They had a "futebol" game on, but I didn't understand much. I wasn't actively listening, however. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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