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TAC 2013 MIR Russian TEAM THREAD | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4700 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 313 of 586 08 January 2013 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
So you asked him, and he fixed it. This can happen in any language, also if you're at a more advanced level; I frequently see sentences in Dutch and English that make me go 'wth is this'. Most important thing is that a mistake in communication is not the world's end in my view. You just ask and figure it out and go on from there. I agree on your point re: translators. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5219 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 314 of 586 08 January 2013 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Of course it's not. The reason why rules are important is that you can be autonomous when you master them and simply ignore silly mistakes instead of choking on them...
... and be able to figure stuff out yourself when you're not chatting on the internet so there's nobody to ask around ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4700 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 315 of 586 08 January 2013 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Then you figure it out for yourself and verify it later, I suppose.
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| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5049 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 316 of 586 08 January 2013 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
She actually did not feel such construction correct either. It can be used only in particular situations. Ну всё, я - спать is probably possible, but it can't be spread to all the verbs in any situation. I don't think it is fairly common. I don't hear it often. I don't remember hearing it at all but it means nothing. They actually wrote it, so it can be on the opposite: they used it in writing in oeder to save time. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5049 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 317 of 586 08 January 2013 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What's the connection between pronunciation rules and bookishness? Soft L must be soft, anyway. The same is with grammar: native speakers do not confuse verbs of motion, it is as incorrect to put только before a verb if it doesn't refer to the verb in speech as it is in writing. I don't see much difference between the standart Russian and the real spoken Russian. If you want to understand the language, why don't you like my activity? Don't I try to explain the language to the learners? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4700 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 318 of 586 08 January 2013 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The fact that it's incorrect doesn't mean people do not understand. If I say я спать, instead of я пойду спать. If I pronounce a hard l and say силно instead of сильно, this doesn't hinder the fact that the other person will still understand that I meant сильно! Even if I then eventually do learn to pronounce it that way, it doesn't matter, because they understood what I was trying to say! This is why it doesn't bother me that the "rule" is that you have to say сильно, and that all Russians pronounce the l as soft here. I can continue to say the word as long as I have to and perfect my soft "l" as I go. These rules exist, the grammar you state is obviously correct! But the thing is that even if we don't always have it come out correctly, people will still understand what we say. It is not wrong to make mistakes. If I put только before a verb that doesn't refer to the verb in actual fact, what does the Russian person do? I'll tell you; he does not say, error error: does not compute! He'll still understand. Thus, I am not fussed if it's incorrect. If it's an error that impedes comprehension it'll show up soon enough. If I pronounce my soft l so badly it will be pointed out because they won't understand what I'm trying to say. (Besides, the l thing is one you can actually distinguish; I find ш, щ much harder to differentiate). Languages are not maths, where you cannot validate an equation unless it's 100% sound. If you demand perfection in language, go ask the academy of language in Russia. We are going to continue to make mistakes, being humans. Maybe, then, according to you, that means that I don't speak "good Russian". But that's a standard you're holding me to that I will not be ever able to comply to; I don't comply to that standard in Dutch or in English, either!
(Just a note: standard is spelled with a d). Because what you're trying to explain is not exactly what I need to know. I want to know how to use the language in a practical context. It's good to know that the actual rule is to use the dash, but the context you're giving me doesn't exactly correspond to what I "see happen". I see ну, я устала, я спать, and I think, what is going on? Where is the verb? So I ask, and it turns out that they are leaving out the verb. What I need to know is not whether it is "grammatically correct" in the sense that putting только before a verb when it's not referring to the verb is; it is to know why the language is used like that and in what context I can say "я спать". I am pointing this out because it is not me writing this, it is a Russian writing this (and probably being lazy with the пойду). I mentioned it because I have found it to be a frequent thing. The fact I have seen it from more than one native speaker means the following; it is apparently a thing people do and there is a pattern to them using it! Then I want to know why that pattern exists and when I can use it (and I can, because they can, and they are native speakers). I'm not approaching language as a linguist. For me, grammar is a tool to describe a language, it's not an end in and of itself.
I specifically asked to confirm this and she said it's used in the spoken language. She said you can leave it out in writing if you are lazy (and want to save time). It might be they do something locally though (both speakers I know are from Tomsk, if that is any help). She did say that it would be more correct to say я пойду писать as opposed to я писать, but she did not make any distinction between verbs in principle. It could be that the common denominator is the word спать. I haven't seen it used with other verbs as much, that is for sure, other than something like Я в магазин Edited by tarvos on 08 January 2013 at 4:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| fabriciocarraro Hexaglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Brazil russoparabrasileirosRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4708 days ago 989 posts - 1454 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishB2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French Studies: Dutch, German, Japanese | Message 319 of 586 08 January 2013 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Me too! It's probably also partialy my fault, because I don't have much exposure to spoken Russian and even if I do, it's as often as it should be, but to my Brazilian ears it's virtually impossible to detect if it's a Ш or a Щ in speech, and 100% impossible to produce this difference (since I don't really understand it). The difference between Л and Ль is much easier for both things, probably because we have the Ль sound in Portuguese (or at least a close one). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4837 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 320 of 586 08 January 2013 at 6:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I know that you two guys have a beef with each other, but I think it might be wiser to listen to Mark -- at least this time. Using a very colloquial construction too often or in the wrong context might be frowned upon by some people. Additionally, I don't understand tarvos's fear of sounding too "bookish", especially in this case. Я пойду спать certainly isn't a construction that's only used by elitarian academics. It's interesting to know that one can also say Я - спать, but I think you shouldn't argue with a native speaker about his language. Although Mark can be very critical, I always found his suggestions very useful, and learning a language well doesn't mean sounding "bookish". We already had this discussion in the "Should one learn slang" thread. Of course one should know colloquial language, but you should also know when it's called for.
Other than that, I agree with Cristina that this isn't Team Война... EDIT: For me, both hard and soft л and ш and щ are nearly impossible to distinguish. I think I'm getting to a point where I can make a distinction between ш and щ, but л and ль? Forget it! The worst word I can think of is большой. I never get the combination of soft л and hard ш right. If the Russians let me decide, that word would be called болщой... Edited by Josquin on 08 January 2013 at 6:51pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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