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PMs TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission | ||
Tags: TellMeMore | Fluenz | Linguaphone | Flash cards | Michel Thomas | Self-Study | Spaced Repetition (SRS) | Diploma/Certificate | Study Plan | Fluency | Dutch | Pimsleur | FSI | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | Assimil | French | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| rlnv Senior Member United States Joined 3944 days ago 126 posts - 233 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 57 of 451 23 April 2014 at 6:14am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Peter, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your preparation for the B1 exam with regard to oral production. Do you have internet language partners, or perhaps a friend or family member that you talk to in French on a regular basis? How much talking time do you figure you had before the test?
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| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5469 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 58 of 451 23 April 2014 at 8:52am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Short answer Hmmm I would guess that I've had the equivalent of a few months worth of skype sessions on a daily or 2nd daily basis? But that is a total absolute guess Long answer It's very difficult for me to give a clear answer on this question. Well I don't have any friends or family that speak French. I know one person at work that I see once every few weeks and speak very very basic phrases with, as it's work and it's busy and most of the vocab necessary while at work isn't exactly conducive to making general conversation. French is not her first language (she's Vietnamese). I have been to 2 meetups in total- one with native speakers, the other with advanced learners. I have never done a language exchange online yet, even tho i've created a skype account for that purpose, and have joined several other sites and collected some exchange partnerts even, with the intention to converse but I am yet to actually proceed. I did a B1 language course at the Alliance Française de Melbourne late 2013 but only went to two thirds of the classes as I became frustated with commuting and the pace of study didn't suit me (I don't take to language classes very enthusiastically, topics I felt were covered too fast, I felt like I would not grasp something properly before attempting to use it increasing the likelihood of errors). However i did get some language speaking practice within those classes for only a couple of months (once a week if I showed up) with other learners and with the teacher. In 2011 I was in France for a total of 6 weeks. For 2 of those 6 I did a farmstay with a farmer that only spoke French. Unfortunately tho, our conversations were very rudimentary as my French at that point had fallen into touristy garbage pulled together from a then distant past foray into French study. Occasionally during the other travelling around France tho (in a campervan) I did manage to have some half decent conversations at caravan parks with other travellers, which might suggest then that my French wasn't as bad as I thought back when the farmer attempted to speak to me. All in all my speaking practice has been rather limited. I commend myself for being able to do what I can do in the language despite less than ideal oral practise. Although I do not recommend it. It's not the most sensible way to approach language learning and nor do I intend to stick to this method indefinitely. And although I might commend myself I could also be very easily critical of my methods. However, I do not necessarily feel that speaking from day one, or speaking very early on (with other French speakers) is a good idea. Making mistakes can help yes, and conversing definitely helps immensely with reinforcing vocabularly for example. But if you're making too many mistakes i think it's a bad idea (for me) to converse too early. I don''t want to reinforce errors. BUT I'm a perfectionist and I definitely have been hindered by this approach. Because I wasn't getting enough practise with the language could very well be the reason I dropped French SO many times and then started again. Now that I have confirmation of B1 level however, and feel very comfortable with the phonetics of the language there's absolutely no reason not to converse as much as possible now. ie I think once one is beyond A2 with a sizeable vocabulary, is very comfortable with the sound of the language, and understands the grammar (ie can correct their own errors through the example of others in context) then it's safe to converse, converse and converse some more. So I learned by using courses . I speak out load everything that I come across when I study or read (unless I'm not at home where speaking out loud would be odd and intrusive to others). I use phonetics so much so that every single flashcard that I enter I know how to pronounce and if I don't when I come across the word in its context (Assimil course for ex.) I will enter the phonetic transcript on the 3rd side of the flashcard to reinforce correct pronunciation. I mimmick all conversations with courses such as Hugo and Assimil so that after I've learned all vocab I make sure I can speak exactly as the speakers on the recordings do at the same pace and tone and stress and know what is being said. This I guess is shadowing. Sometimes I pause and replay lines, other times I translate from English back to French while reading off the English dialogue speaking in French and pausing and playing after each sentence for confirmation followed by repetition to reinforce any error in my own reproduction, and once ready to move on I speak over the top of the conversations without pausing so that I can speak at the same pace. I always keep an open mind that my pronunciation could be slightly off and if I discover it myself I aim to correct it. Pimsleur I have found is excellent for clearly spoken French. It's tedious but i enjoy it in some weird way. Perhaps had I not stopped and started French so many times over the years I would not be confortable speaking. In other words, perhaps it would be unfair to simply allude to the possibility that my perfectionism has made me some kind of special agent grand master flash ninja language learner, and that in fact my very flaws have helped via a rediculous amount of over exposure to the same exercises and conversations multiple times but stringed out over years. This method is robotic, and tedious (when viewed from an outsider). For me it's linear, but I kept interrupting the line so to speak and would begin again at square one. But yes robotic and unnatural. It's got me to B1 but unlikely to get me much further in the oral stages of such exams. I know I need to converse, and do intend to, but i'm still happy plodding along a little while longer yet before really throwing myself headlong into that pool. Of course I could be wrong, maybe I sound a lot worse than I care to admit. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| rlnv Senior Member United States Joined 3944 days ago 126 posts - 233 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 59 of 451 24 April 2014 at 4:41am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Thank you Peter for the thoughtful and insightful response.
I too am learning in an environment without an immediate language partner, so I'll have to be very resourceful in getting conversation practice, especially at first. I tend to be very introverted and probably too self conscious, and given that, it's important for me to try and find the best time to find a language partner. Not too early so I make many mistakes and struggle, and not too late as to hold myself back. For now I'm also talking out most of what I study, and lots of conversations in my head which gives me time to find the words and mistakes. I'm supposed to schedule a tutor for my commitment for the April Learning Challenge but I don't really feel ready. I might just wait another month or two and let the French swirl around a bit in my head, and progress in my methods a bit further. Your passing the B1 given the amount of practice you had is a good accomplishment, and it gives me a sense of what can be done. It also certainly indicates that you are doing something right. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5469 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 60 of 451 24 April 2014 at 6:21am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Hi Ron, Thanks for sharing the reasoning behind your question. You sound a lot like me in terms of the way i've studied up to this point. It is encouraged to share with others your journey to obtaining language certificates, passing exams and so on in one's profile on HTLAL. For that reason I wrote quite an extensive explanation on my background in French up to the B1 exam for the purpose of sharing with others my background and what to do and what not to do in my opinion. However it would not save to my HTLAL profile even with multiple attempts over various days. I suspect that I simply wrote too much. Anyway thanks for asking, and I'm glad I can now share and provide some insight. Do know that speaking was not my worst section of the exam. My worst was the first section which involved Listening to some short-ish audio segments and then answering written questions on them. So if you are like me indeed, then I would encourage continued exposure to audio spoken at natural pace that you can get the gist of. Movies, the news and the like help for that. I'm only doing it in my spare time, so it still is not my main focus, as understanding those things better also comes with increased vocab and understanding of the language through all other methods. Anyway doing such listening trains you to sourcing out key elements of audio excerpts in order to get the main points and be able to answer questions related to the main points. My apologies if I'm getting off track, suggesting sth you're not keen on, or am coming across all-encompassing know-it-all. Just some thoughts really. I never studied for the exam either. I just kept doing what I was doing. In fact I even said I would go to a meet- up the evening before but in the end couldn't be bothered driving an hour away to participate (i'm not that social either). I didn't want to find short-cuts to how to ace the exam while actually being much worse in the language than the certified result would suggest. What I mean is there are books and so on that aim to help and prepare one for such exams (and past exams too), but I didn't want to do it this time around as I wanted the 'truth' from my efforts. I wanted to be put on the spot. I knew roughly how the exam went but didn't do any practice exams etc. I do have books now aimed at ppl wanting to pass B2 and C1 exams which I might use in the lead up to those exams, as they become trickier and more specific and i'm satisfied I now know where I stand with my level of French. I guess I"m saying that as I think the idea of a B1 exam is scary, but it's not that bad. If I could pass it with little conversational practice and no specific exam practise, then I think you'll do ok Ron, and maybe better than I did. Just keep studying is the main thing. Use the methods that you're most comfortable with and when the time comes that you take the exam, use it as an opportunity to discover your weaker points so that you can develop those for the next level. As for speaking, your plan seems fine to me, another month or 2 or more even of delayed speaking with (a) French speaker(s) in my opinion won't hurt. I know that those like Benny the Irish Polyglot say speak from day one, but only just the other day I listened to him speaking French at an apparent C1 level and was not that impressed. It's certainly commendable what he can do, and it is fast and effective it seems, and his method is fine if you don't care if you have an accent (which he doesn't so much). However if you want to sound authentic I believe delaying interaction is not such a bad thing. To be a little fair on Benny I did notice from the background that he was in Amsterdam, thus French was probably not exactly at the forefront of his mind, and he was on camera, which can really affect one's performance if not used to it. An accent as close to authentic as possible can improve impressions that you speak well. An obvious accent may give the impression that one is not as good as may actually be the case. Those points however don't matter much when it comes to the AF exams as they are trained to look beyond accent, and they don't matter in the everyday world either, as most meaningful conversations will go beyond just a few sentences, thereby rendering accent unimportant. Sorry to waffle on again Ron, I guess I'm a little too self centred it seems :) Edited by PeterMollenburg on 24 April 2014 at 6:28am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4902 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 61 of 451 24 April 2014 at 9:43am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
You know the saying, tomorrow never comes? From what I've read in your language log, you are as ready now as you will be tomorrow. What real difference will another month make? Whatever level you make it to, you will realize there is much more to learn. If signing up for a public challenge isn't enough push, what will be enough push in a month or two? On the other hand, I know exactly how you feel. Signing up for a language partner is one of my goals for this year, but frankly I'm mainly concerned about what to say. I'm not that social either. If nothing else, I would like to encourage you to sign up so I can hear about how it goes, LOL. And Peter, I definitely appreciated your waffle. Edited by Jeffers on 24 April 2014 at 9:45am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5469 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 62 of 451 29 April 2014 at 12:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Here's a link to another topic that I started that seems fitting to be added in here and
any discussion on it continued here also. It's centres around my use of flashcards and progressing on doing away with translations into English TID=38630&PN=1">Progressing from L2-L1/L1-L2 Flashcards Edited by PeterMollenburg on 29 April 2014 at 12:45am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5469 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 63 of 451 29 April 2014 at 12:43am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I have read that article before, but it certainly doesn't hurt to read it over again as it's been a while, and insights from other ppl's learning methods (like HTLAL) are always worth reflection. I'm gently arriving at the conclusion that it's time for me to do away with the clutch of English, at least with my flashcards from here on. I have over 7000 cards in my French deck, I would assume I'm far beyond the need for translation, I might even be beyond flashcards altogether but i'm not quite ready to do that. Thanks for your input Sunja 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5469 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 64 of 451 29 April 2014 at 1:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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emk I'm going to quote your whole post in response to what I wrote just so others can
refer to it here in it's entirety. Thanks for your extensive assistance btw, much appreciated
Now to comment on your comments :)
I should clarify here that I don't only use courses and word lists, that I have done some reading up to this point, although I wouldn't really class it as extensive. I am hearing you and others that reading is required (perhaps some can get away with not doing it) and I'm not an exception to that. So, soon I want to change that, I was using 5 courses, one of which i've recenlty completed. That leaves 4 courses, I should be able to reduce that to 3 within a month, maybe even a week (not sure how much work ahead of me in that particular course), then reduce even further to 2 courses after a month or 2. Anyway once i've reduced the courses down to 2 only, I have an aim of 2 hrs French study a day with one hour of a course and the other hour reading (same next day with the other course and other reader, thereby having some variation). My reading will entail using Bien-dire and Think French. Think French Bien-dire sample They both provide translations of expressions and words in the columns next to the articles and have audio for almost all the articles. I can use the translated words in the columns like a built in dictionary of sorts that enables quick translation reference, BUT any of these new terms discovered and perhaps even referred to in English for it's translation will ONLY be added to my flashcards entirely in French by taking the French sentence from the article, examples from a French only dictionary, using pictures as you've shown emk , fill in the gaps and so on.
Looking at the images of this tool, it looks rather handy. I have a few questions regarding this emk. How speedy is it to use is my main question. I must mention that I don't use Anki but prefer to use Flashcards Deluxe, I'm guessing you don't'know a lot about this program but perhaps you do in fact know if it's compatible? At the very least I know I can add images with Flashcards Deluxe, and i'm certainly able to explore the options of this program but I just thought it wouldn't hurt to ask :) Currently with my French-English deck of flashcards I can create a new single word front and back card in a little over a few seconds. Given that I'm looking to take away the clutch of English because it seems to be impeding my 'flow'.... (back to my main theme again) how much, when you do use this tool, in terms of time does it take to create a card like in the example image you have provided? How long does it take you when not using this program to create an individual card? PM Edited by PeterMollenburg on 29 April 2014 at 1:38am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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