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Wann bist du geboren? (German)

  Tags: German
 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages Post Reply
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Random review
Diglot
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 Message 33 of 71
12 January 2014 at 6:27pm | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:
Okay, I think it's just colloquial language where the "worden" can be omitted. There are
more examples for this:

Wann bist du geboren (worden)?
Wann ist das Haus gebaut (worden)?
Wann bist du getauft (worden)?
Wo ist er begraben (worden)?


Fantastic! I didn't know this happened, but if it can happen with other verbs, I'm happy with that
explanation. Thanks, Josquin.

Edited by Random review on 12 January 2014 at 6:28pm
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Josquin
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 Message 34 of 71
12 January 2014 at 6:29pm | IP Logged 
Random review wrote:
It doesn't normally work that way with resultant states, though. If you are talking to someone who is ill,
you wouldn't ask them "when are you ill?" but rather "when did you fall/get ill?".

You're confusing adjectives with participles here. The construction only works with past participles. And please don't compare it with English constructions. That won't really work!

EDIT: You're welcome! :)

Edited by Josquin on 12 January 2014 at 6:30pm
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Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
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 Message 35 of 71
12 January 2014 at 6:38pm | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:
Random review wrote:
It doesn't normally work that way with resultant states,
though. If you are talking to someone who is ill,
you wouldn't ask them "when are you ill?" but rather "when did you fall/get ill?".

You're confusing adjectives with participles here. The construction only works with past participles. And
please don't compare it with English constructions. That won't really work!

EDIT: You're welcome! :)


Ill is an adjective desribing a resultant state. If you want a participle (and bear in mind that this can be a
grey area), how about this instead: you wouldn't ask someone who has been shot "when are you shot?"
but rather "when are you/did you get shot?".

I'm not using English constructions in the naïve expectation that they correspond to the German; I am
using English constructions that correspond to the meaning textbooks (rightly or wrongly) ascribe to the
German constructions (thus the English constructions I have been using are not particularly natural) in
order to explore when, how or even whether they make logical sense. My
assumption is that if they don't make sense, there must be something not quite right in the textbook
explanations of the meaning of the German constructions. In this way I can explore and get closer to
understanding their true meaning. I find this useful and always have.

Edited by Random review on 12 January 2014 at 6:46pm
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Josquin
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 Message 36 of 71
12 January 2014 at 7:05pm | IP Logged 
As far as I know, all adjectives describe states, but maybe this really is the grey area between participle and adjective. That would mean the participles "geboren"/"getauft"/"begraben" etc. had to be interpreted as adjectives describing the state of having been born/baptized/buried. But this is basically what Zustandspassiv is all about: participles describing a state.

Last but not least, I think you're still misinterpreting Zustandspassiv. Instead of translating "Wann bist du geboren?" as "When are you in a state of having been born?", it would be better to analyze it as "When have you been in a state of being born?". That's how Zustandspassiv works.
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tarvos
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 Message 37 of 71
12 January 2014 at 7:08pm | IP Logged 
It doesn't make any sense to try and correlate German/Dutch passive constructions with
English here. They really don't work in the same vein at all.

(Dutch constructions are identical to German, and we always drop the "worden" - it's
weird to us - "Wanneer ben je geboren" is good enough)
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Josquin
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 Message 38 of 71
12 January 2014 at 7:16pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
It doesn't make any sense to try and correlate German/Dutch passive constructions with English here. They really don't work in the same vein at all.

Yeah, you're definitely right. I'm really twisting my brain trying to convey this construction into English. Let's simply say the "worden" can be omitted with some verbs such as "gebären" or "begraben" and everything is fine.
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Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
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Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

 
 Message 39 of 71
12 January 2014 at 7:19pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
It doesn't make any sense to try and correlate German/Dutch passive constructions with
English here. They really don't work in the same vein at all.

(Dutch constructions are identical to German, and we always drop the "worden" - it's
weird to us - "Wanneer ben je geboren" is good enough)


That's not what I'm doing (see above).
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Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5728 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

 
 Message 40 of 71
12 January 2014 at 7:21pm | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:
As far as I know, all adjectives describe states, but maybe this really is the grey area
between participle and adjective. That would mean the participles "geboren"/"getauft"/"begraben" etc. had
to be interpreted as adjectives describing the state of having been born/baptized/buried. But this is
basically what Zustandspassiv is all about: participles describing a state.

Last but not least, I think you're still misinterpreting Zustandspassiv. Instead of translating "Wann
bist du geboren?" as "When are you in a state of having been born?", it would be better to analyze it as
"When have you been in a state of being born?". That's how Zustandspassiv works.


It does seem that way mate. I'll have to go back and look into it again. Thanks for your help on this topic.


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