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Warp3: Korean/Japanese (TAC 2015 東亞) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5528 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese | Message 441 of 479 25 January 2015 at 7:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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The points you both made are exactly why I've found adding Korean and Japanese
readings so useful. Many of these Kanji are characters I already learned as Hanja previously and attaching the Korean reading is often all that is needed to recreate that link. Just to clarify, I'm not adding the reading for the purpose of learning the readings, I'm using them as Korean and Japanese "keywords" so I can recall which specific character is being requested. In other words they are part of the question, not the answer. For example, I recently activated the character 島 (which I've known for a while from Hanja study anyway). When I did so, I changed the keyword field from "island" to "island (도) (どう・しま)". The "도" from Korean and the "しま" from Japanese are both very attached to that character already in my mind. Thus by having them in the prompt, I know exactly which character Anki is asking me to recreate. This isn't a great example of one where I'm using it to differentiate keywords, but is a good example of linking it back to concepts I already know in those two languages. For a keyword clarity example, the character 土 has an RTK keyword of "soil". Unfortunately there are multiple dirt and ground related Chinese characters, though, so it's not necessarily 100% obvious which one was mapped to that keyword (especially if your story is starting to slip). By changing it to "soil (토) (ど)" instead, I can eliminate characters like 地 that have complete different readings and mentally link it to words like 토요일 / 土曜日 that use that root. Edited by Warp3 on 25 January 2015 at 7:55pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Woodsei Bilingual Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Woodsei Joined 4790 days ago 614 posts - 782 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)* Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian | Message 442 of 479 25 January 2015 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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You said it better, Warp3. The Japanese keyword is a better and more accurate gauge of
the kanji overall, and bypasses the "translation" step. Really, I think Heisig is meant to be powered through so that the real keyword/vocabulary/reading thing is dealt with more in actual context, because that's where learning really happens. I think he himself did it in 6 weeks, if memory serves me correctly. RTK isn't the end, it's just the means, but a very effective one. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5528 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese | Message 443 of 479 26 January 2015 at 5:33am | IP Logged | ||
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Well I bit the bullet and bought the JALUP Beginner package this evening. I'm going to
start with the default setting of 20 new cards per day and I'll see how it goes from there. I did the first 20 this evening and was surprised to find myself learning new information from some of them already. Since I've gone all the way through 3 levels of Pimsleur and am working my way through Japanese for Busy People, I wasn't expecting to find new information this early, but the stock phrases for "I'm home!" and "Welcome home!" were phrases that Pimsleur never taught and I haven't learned them from any other source yet either so they were completely new to me. I've also thought of a plan to use this deck and accomplish some RTK revision goals at the same time. For any Kanji I come across in the JALUP deck, I will add both Korean and Japanese readings to that RTK card (if not already present) and unsuspend the card (if not already part of the RTK Lite set). The JALUP deck has already introduced 4 Kanji (3 as part of names and 願 from お願いします) in the first 20 cards. Only one of those was still suspended (the 鈴 from 鈴木[すずき]), but all of them required at least one tweak to the readings. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4658 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 444 of 479 26 January 2015 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | ||
Yes, indeed. Heisig isn't meant to tell you that 電 has the reading でん, it's meant to help you recognise that shape, and to do so attaches a keyword ""electricity") to it. If you're Chinese then it's largely a waste of time (since you already basically know the shapes anyway). If you're me, then you need a crutch to help you tell one shape from another. Vocabulary is a different issue and Heisig doesn't help with that (although I think RTK 2 does try to help with readings, but I've never tried it, so I can't comment). That said, lots of people dislike Heisig or just prefer to learn in other ways. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5528 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese | Message 445 of 479 01 February 2015 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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한국어 (2015년 1월 25일 - 2015년 1월 31일):
Extensive Reading: - Twitter (a few visits each week) Comments: I'm running into an issue due to the way I'm tracking videos. I had assumed that keeping it simple and counting videos rather than time was the better choice. However, the issue is that the Korean shows I watch are, on average, much longer than the Japanese shows I watch. For example, the two main shows for which I created this unsubbed video goal were music shows and Running Man. Both tend to hover just over an hour per episode (without ads). Many of the shows I'm finding myself watching in Japanese however, are right at the 23 minute mark (also without ads). In fact, I'm starting to think Japanese shows are just shorter in general since I can't think of any show type except sitcoms that are quite that short in Korean. Variety shows are generally just over an hour, idol-based shows usually ring in at 44-47 minutes, dramas are just over an hour, music shows are just over an hour. In contrast, I have shows of several different types in Japanese and many of those are right at the 23 minute mark. The resulting issue is that say I watch a music show (Korean) and 3 episodes of AKBINGO! (Japanese). I spent nearly an identical time on both yet get triple the credit for the Japanese TV. So even though my Japanese TV goal is triple the Korean one, they result in a near identical number of hours of TV watched. In addition, it is much easier to find motivation to watch a 23 minute show over a 1hr+ show. I can think of two things to try to fix this. Option 1) Find shorter Korean TV shows that I want to watch. Unfortunately this option isn't as easy as it seems. The only videos I can think of that I have that are that short are 지붕뚫고 하 이킥 (High Kick Through The Roof) which I never quite completed in subbed form as I grew bored with it. Option 2) Change my tracking method to track time instead of shows, so I get more credit for Korean shows than I do now and/or less for Japanese shows. There is some merit to this and I also now understand why many other language learners track time instead, so this may be the only good option. TAC Progress (week 5): Unsubbed Videos: 28 -> 32 (91) Team Challenges: 1 -> 1 (1) (The values before the arrow are last week's values. The values in parentheses are the final goals for Q1, except for the Team Challenge where it denotes the total number of issued challenges.) --- 日本語 (2015年 1月 25日 - 2015年 1月 31日): Current RTK Lite Status: Lessons Done = 56 -> 56 (56) Kanji Covered = 2042 -> 2042 (2042) Active SRS Cards = 1116 -> 1116 (1116) (The values before the arrow are last week's values. The values in parentheses are the totals for completing RTK1 / RTK Lite.) Extensive Reading: - Twitter (a few visits each week) Comments: I've been doing the JALUP cards at 20/day which is the default setting. This has proven to be perfectly manageable so far, though it helps that many of the concepts aren't quite new to me, so I'm hitting "Easy" on the first appearance of several cards. I'm definitely learning a lot from these cards, but it doesn't have that same feeling of using a textbook that generates boredom. The method used is a bit unique compared to what I've seen in textbooks. Like Assimil and Pimsleur, he doesn't explicitly teach grammar but does include usage notes here and there where needed (noting which forms are polite forms, for example). Also, translations are only included for *new* information. So if the card has one new word in it, but the rest of the sentence has been introduced before, then only that new word is translated into English. The rest of the sentence has no translation. Since these cards never introduce more than one new concept at a time, this actually seems to work pretty well in practice. At the current rate, I can complete the JALUP Beginner Deck before the end of Q1, so I'm adding it as a Japanese TAC goal for this quarter. On a related note, I'm also dropping the textbook lesson goal to 26 (average of 2/week) partly due to adding the JALUP Beginner deck and partly as consistently doing 3 textbook lessons per week has proven completely futile due to lack of time. There are 25 lessons in JfBP1 so this should still result in completing that book should I continue biasing it the way I have thus far. This week was a complete failure on RTK. I did revise a few cards as they appeared in the JALUP deck, but I only reviewed cards on Sunday and then did zero reviews the remainder of the week. {sigh} TAC Progress (week 5): Rembering The Kanji: 12 -> 12 (26) Textbook Lessons: 7 -> 7 (26) Videos: 94 -> 116 (273) JALUP Beginner: 0 -> 140 (1000) Team Challenges: 1 -> 1 (1) (The values before the arrow are last week's values. The values in parentheses are the final goals for Q1, except for the Team Challenge where it denotes the total number of issued challenges.) Edited by Warp3 on 01 February 2015 at 7:27pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Woodsei Bilingual Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Woodsei Joined 4790 days ago 614 posts - 782 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)* Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian | Message 446 of 479 01 February 2015 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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Are you referring to only variety shows, or dramas too? Anime runs at 24 minutes/episode,
on average, but dramas are usually 46 minutes without ads, and some variety shows run at something like 59 minutes. That said, I do notice that Korean TV is longer in general, not just by minute count, but also by episode count. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5528 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese | Message 447 of 479 01 February 2015 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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I haven't really watched any J-dramas yet so I didn't really know how long they ran. I just
looked at the running times of some of the K-dramas I've watched previously and they all ranged from 57 to 1:07 per episode (without ads). Most of what I've watched in Japanese (other than Gaki no Tsukai that varies all over the place since some are year- end specials and others are just clips) rings in at 23-24 minutes, but that has mostly been AKBINGO! plus some anime series. One of my main comparison points is that a show of the type of AKBINGO! would most likely not be that short on Korean TV. Idol- based shows are usually around 44-47 minutes and variety shows over an hour, so an idol-based variety show would likely hit one of those two marks, not 23-24 minutes. What I probably need to do is get hooked on a Korean sitcom. Those are all in that same 23-24 minute range which would help balance out the longer shows. Adding in a few longer Japanese shows would complete the balancing process. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Woodsei Bilingual Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Woodsei Joined 4790 days ago 614 posts - 782 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)* Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian | Message 448 of 479 01 February 2015 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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You know, in the grand scheme of things, even though it's good to keep track of time,
it really isn't all that vital to even out things between Korean and Japanese :) You may be watching a short episode, but it would be so dense with speech that really, it's almost as if you've watched two of them. One notable example is the Bakemonogatari series of light novels that got adapted into anime. Boy, do they talk! It's one long string of speech, and at some very high speeds, too. The characters also respond to each extremely rapidly it can leave you breathless. But the series, both the books and the anime, is amazing for learning how to speak extremely well. I really should be following my own advice and going back to them. That's why it's good that we're all keeping logs. Reminders and what not. But yes, I do get why you'd want to even things out for easier comparison. Just don't force yourself to watch a cheesy sitcom because it evens out the Japanese :D One question, I've wanted to ask, and it's probably naive, but are Korean shows repetitive? As in, the same themes get rehashed every time, most of the time (e.g. boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, etc) or do they offer a lot of variety? Don't take my point as is, that's just an example. I've noticed that Japanese TV does offer a lot of variety when it comes to different themes, but of course, repetition does happen. Edited by Woodsei on 01 February 2015 at 8:36pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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