Infinitive after German modal verbs (Questions About Your Target Languages) Language Learning Forum

Infinitive after German modal verbs
Tags: Verbs/Conjugation \| German
Share with: Delicious Digg reddit Facebook StumbleUpon
Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages

Cabaire
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 5544 days ago
725 posts - 1352 votes

Message 1 of 8

26 September 2014 at 12:30am | IP Logged

Quote:

From Assimil:
1. Er hat kommen wollen, aber er hat nicht gekonnt.
Translated: He wanted to come, but he couldn't.

I dont get this. Why is it "wollen" in the first part and "gekonnt" in the second?
Is it because there are two verbs in the first part "kommen wollen"?

I would have written this as:
2. Er wollte kommen, aber er konnte nicht.

Is the meaning of the second way different from the first?

Also is the following correct:
3. Er hat gewollt, aber er hat nicht gekonnt.[From Assimil:
1. Er hat kommen wollen, aber er hat nicht gekonnt.
Translated: He wanted to come, but he couldn't.

I dont get this. Why is it "wollen" in the first part and "gekonnt" in the second?
Is it because there are two verbs in the first part "kommen wollen"?

I would have written this as:
2. Er wollte kommen, aber er konnte nicht.

Is the meaning of the second way different from the first?

Also is the following correct:
3. Er hat gewollt, aber er hat nicht gekonnt.

1 person has voted this message useful

Cabaire
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 5544 days ago
725 posts - 1352 votes

Message 2 of 8

26 September 2014 at 12:40am | IP Logged

When you use modal verbs or "brauchen" in the perfect connected to an infinitive, you replace the second participle with an infinitive (called Ersatzinfinitiv):

Er hat kommen müssen (not: gemußt)
Er wird nicht haben kommen können (not: gekonnt)
Das hättest du nicht zu tun brauchen (not: gebraucht)

But without an infinitive:
Er hat es gekonnt.
Er wird es nicht gekonnt haben.
Das hättest du nicht gebraucht.

When you use the infinitive perfect, you use the second participle, if "haben" is the last word, but the Ersatzinfinitive, if you put haben earlier:

Er wird nicht kommen gekonnt haben.
Er wird nicht haben kommen können (same sense)

All your sentences are therefore correct.

Edited by Cabaire on 26 September 2014 at 12:50am
3 persons have voted this message useful

outcast
Bilingual Heptaglot
Senior Member
China
Joined 4894 days ago
869 posts - 1364 votes

Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin
Studies: Korean

Message 3 of 8

15 October 2014 at 6:21am | IP Logged

Unless I have consumed some very strange pills unbeknownst to me in the last few hours, in my window it shows that Cabaire posted the OP, and then he /she replied to the OP, in other words, he answered himself / herself.

I know it has nothing to do with anything, but it is odd.

I wonder if when I post this reply the glitch will fix itself...
1 person has voted this message useful

outcast
Bilingual Heptaglot
Senior Member
China
Joined 4894 days ago
869 posts - 1364 votes

Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin
Studies: Korean

Message 4 of 8

15 October 2014 at 6:53am | IP Logged

Ok, anyways...

I'm curious about this "infinitive perfect", I have never heard of this tense. In English, the perfect infinitive appears to be the "to have + past participle" construction. I must admit this construction is something I have not studied well in any language, and give me trouble at times.

I am glad to have met you.
Ich bin froh, dich getroffen zu haben.

That's a simple construction.

But I'm not familiar with this "wird" construction + modal / infinitive perfect. What is that "wird"? A future tense auxiliary, or a "wird" of supposition (as in "Er wird wohl das Schloss besichtigen")? Or something different?

Thanks for your help in advance.

1 person has voted this message useful

smallwhite
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5253 days ago
537 posts - 1045 votes

Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish

Message 5 of 8

15 October 2014 at 7:44am | IP Logged

outcast wrote:

... Cabaire posted the OP, and then he /she replied to the OP, in other words, he answered himself / herself.

I know it has nothing to do with anything, but it is odd. ...

This is an automatic self-answering thread. If you put your question in quote tags, you will get an answer automatically. Like this:

smallwhite wrote:

What tense is this sentence in?
Er wird nicht kommen gekonnt haben.

1 person has voted this message useful

smallwhite
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5253 days ago
537 posts - 1045 votes

Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish

Message 6 of 8

15 October 2014 at 7:44am | IP Logged

smallwhite wrote:

What tense is this sentence in?
Er wird nicht kommen gekonnt haben.

That's in Futur II, Indikativ.
He will not have been able to come.

(Please note the self-answering function hasn't been tested for German yet.)
1 person has voted this message useful

outcast
Bilingual Heptaglot
Senior Member
China
Joined 4894 days ago
869 posts - 1364 votes

Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin
Studies: Korean

Message 7 of 8

15 October 2014 at 2:57pm | IP Logged

Ok, thanks. I still don't understand why I cannot see who really asked the original question though...

As for the sentences, so it is indeed the future perfect. Thank you

No wonder I have not studied it much, almost no one in any language I speak uses it particularly with modals... way too wordy and confusing. "He will not have been able to come" is a contrive scenario for which I cannot foresee much practical every day use.

But coincidentally, just yesterday I was thinking about the word order with the future perfect and modals, so this came in very handy.

And since we are in this territory, let's take it all the way:

How would the word order be if such a sentence was a dependent clause???

Weil / dass.... er nicht kommen gekonnt haben wird (?)
Weil / dass.... er nicht wird kommen haben können (?)

Edited by outcast on 15 October 2014 at 2:57pm
1 person has voted this message useful

Gemuse
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 4027 days ago
818 posts - 1189 votes

Speaks: English
Studies: German

Message 8 of 8

18 October 2014 at 1:41am | IP Logged

outcast wrote:

I had tried to made the OP as a separate thread, but the darn forum software would just make it into a post in another random thread.

Cabaire kindly took notice and gave it a thread as was intended, and in addition answered my query.

I typically avoid posting one line replies saying "Thanks!!" as that would get old real fast and unnecessarily create forum clutter seeing how many people help me out here, but perhaps in this case I should have posted.

PS: Thanks Cabaire!!!

1 person has voted this message useful

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login. If you are not already registered you must first register

Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum

This page was generated in 1.4531 seconds.