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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5002 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes  Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 113 of 129 27 June 2015 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, explicit grammar study can help with the mistakes one keeps repeating over and over just fine. However, there are grammar resources of various quality and you don't appear too content with yours, don't let them drive you away from your goal.
I am afraid a tutor isn't often the best solution for grammar. They are used to teach it from scratch at best, or to teach it wrong at worst. It is a bit more complicated once you more or less know the things but just need to put some order in the chaos and fix the weak points. But having a tutor for practice, speaking etc. is a great opportunity to ask questions once a book fails you, that is true. Some nice grammar resources I can only recommend: 1.Grammaire Progressive (I suppose you've read about this series already) -probably the best series there is. All the grammar in four volumes, good explanations, tons of examples, plenty exercises. The order in which you complete the lessons is totally up to you, you can easily tie your grammar studies to things you encounter during your more fun activities. 2.L'Exercisier -another good book with explanations and exercises, mostly for the intermediate level B1-B2. Different kinds of exercises compared to the previous one, different approach to overviews and explanations. 3.Toute la conjugaison -A totally awesome verb book. There are not only the tables (+a huge list of most verbs you are ever likely to need with a link to the appropriate model). But that is not the best part, such tables can be found in many other places as well afterall, including free websites or apps or books of all weigts and colours. This book is different. There are explanations of all the stuff related to verbs, including things not often mentioned in books aimed at foreigners. This masterpiece was writen with natives on mind but it is just as great for an advanced learner. It is really well writen and the colourful layout is very functional, pleasant and easy to use. And it is fun to read actually :-) It puts most references in my bookshelf (or on my harddrive) to shame. .................. About your Swedish. How do you find the FSI? It looks good, I tried the first chapter ages ago (but haven't got much time for Swedish since then). What is the rest of the course like, is the learning curve steep? Does the language look outdated anyhow? Thanks for any information on it. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5159 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 114 of 129 27 June 2015 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | ||
I'm not the most dilligent person when it comes to studying grammar, even though I do like it. So I set this both as a 'minimum' and as a 'limit'. Some days I read light topics that I understand instantly and could read 10 pages more, other days I may be confused by just two pages and yet I move on because I expect other books to clear eventual doubts. And when the issue is indeed too complicated, like some verbal constructs in Georgian, I let it go till I can get back to it in a few months after having had more input that will work as context. Exercises are the ultimate way for activating grammar knowledge. I wish I could learn all grammar features without having to practice translation exercises for that sake, but it is by far what works the best with me, considering I avoid SRS. So, if there are translation exercises, all the better. Morphology exercises, like fill in the blank with the declined word or just with the ending, get on my nerves and I usually just study these for the vocabularies. What happens with me is that the way textbooks are built deal with some grammar concepts while still not familiar with the vocabulary, and it is hard to understand the grammar while you still don't understand what is meant to be said. I mean, you could, for example, drill all the vocsbulary in a lesson before reading about the grammar, but that would be vocabulary drilling which I abhorr. So I tend to find a compromise in terms of learning the superficial 'layers' of both vocabulary and grammar at one book, then a little more at the next one. Usually what is left out, in terms of grammar at least, are the actual endings for verbs and noun declensions, at least this is the case with Estonian: I 'understood' the grammar but I don't know enough morphology to build sentences on my own. Sometimes I know the rule by heart of when to use this or that word, but I don't remember which one is at which situation! All this concerns different, rather exotic languages, for sure. With similar languages you can figure out the rules just by yourself and you need the grammar even for some intricacies. I didn't need to read about the passato in Italian because I was already familiar with it from French, but the first time I encountered it in French it came out as totally alien, as I was used to express the past with just a single verbal form in my native language, and the verb to have + participle meant something totally different to me. With time you become a sort of linguist and interpret most of the grammar just by looking at the sentence and its translation. Word order, for example, you know at sight whether a language is left-branded and right-branded. But the mere fact you pay attention to this 'brandedness' is credited to your previous experience with learning languages. It's like the story of the Japanese technician who charged $1000 for pressing a loose screw because it took him a lot to study to know which screw he was supposed to tighten. The last time I studied French Grammar I used the Grammaire progressive niveau avancé. I think I settled down most doubts I still had. Now if I'm doing something wrong in French (I surely am) it is rather a matter of practicing for reinforcing the rules I've already read about a lot of times. I might get the niveau perfectionnement because I'm sure it will get into finer details of expression, but in terms of writing correct I think my attention has already been awaken where it matters. I went through 'Modern German Grammar: a Practical Guide' maybe a bit too soon because I was still seeing the bit picture in German Grammar, but I still believe the knowledge is there, latent. If I write in German and someone corrects me and mentions a rule, I'm sure I will remember having read the rule before. Btw, I like this series because it has explanations and then a workbook, that is, it has a lot of content. As I worked on the exercises for German I even thought some of these were too much, like 20 sentences for each concept within a chapter. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5002 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 115 of 129 27 June 2015 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah, I totally understand this "laziness". For me, it is usually dificult to start. Once I begin, it gets interesting, sometimes even really fun. That's why I like to study the grammar I've just encountered elsewhere, so that there is a tie with real life.
Expug, have you found some translation exercise resources for French (or Italian or Russian)? The only ones I know are Czech based, it looks like most publishers are scared of them. The fill in the gaps and such things can be useful at some point, in ma opinion. They make me go through more examples and slower than when I am just reading. The gap requires me to focus on one grammar point at a time which is just fine at first. Thanks for the Modern German Grammar tip. The Perfectionnement level of the Progressive series is actually a bit different from the rest. It goes into detail, deals with common mistakes and so on, it is more systematic, there are differences between various registers of the language pointed out and so on. You can surely do without it (heh, millions of learners did as this level is quite new) but I'd say there is a ton of new information compared to Avancé. Sorry about invading your log perhaps too much, Elenia! P.S. Expug, what grammar sources would you recommend for learning Russian? I've already got a course that looks really good but I always need much more grammar practice than one course can offer. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5159 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 116 of 129 27 June 2015 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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Not exactly for French. I used an old TY as my first source, but that was at an A1 level. The old Teach Yourself books from the 40's, 50's, 60's are all grammar-based textbooks, and can be found around there. So yes, they have plenty of translation exercises. Also for Russian, and if I'm not mistaken there are two editions available of the same old style. Just don't waste time on resources that explain what a case is, what gender is because you are already familiar with all that.
For Russian I can also recommend the same series, i.e. Modern Russian Grammar: a Practical Guide. You have the other grammars from Routledge, like Basic Russian a Grammar and Workbook and Intermediate Russian a Grammar and Workbook, but I prefer the contextual and communicational approach of the Modern...Grammar series. Why not both? They have plenty of exercises. Anyway, all of those grammar-textbooks by Routledge are available for French and German as well, and they have a good set of exercises, each of them do. The New Penguin Russian Course is also good in grammar coverage of the essential. Duolingo is about to be released so I think it will also do the job of helping you activate grammar. There is a software I downloaded once that comprises exercises and seems fun, it's called Russian for all: 1000 tasks and afaicr there are 3 levels. Oh, and a thin grammar book called 'Essential Russian Grammar'. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5469 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 117 of 129 28 June 2015 at 3:50am | IP Logged | ||
Dammit Cavesa! You're making me want another course - added to my wish list on amazon now :) - As if I don't have enough courses already. It's so your fault. I"m telling mum Edit: You're done for (mean look on my face, with a smirk in one corner, or is it?) Edited by PeterMollenburg on 28 June 2015 at 3:54am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5002 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 118 of 129 28 June 2015 at 11:58am | IP Logged | ||
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Tell your mum I'm sorry! But at least this one isn't that expensive!
Thanks for the info, Expug. Fortunately, I am unlikely to ever need and buy another French grammar. But the Russian is making me slightly worried as, when I finally have the time to start, I'll probably need to adapt my learning style due to difference in resources available. It is weird but sometimes, the czech publishers actually have as much or even more and better resources than the international ones. There are some great resources for German and Spanish learners and now I can see there is quite a lot for the Russian learners. I'll probably need to stick with those but the Modern grammar could be really good. Sorry about the invasion again, Elenia. Don't tell your mum, please! :-) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5200 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 119 of 129 29 June 2015 at 11:11am | IP Logged | ||
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I loved Grammaire Progressive niveau Perfectionnement, it helped me fix a lot of little mistakes I was always making and cleared up a lot of doubts. I haven't seen the other levels but I've heard good things.
Ooh, a trip to Italy? I'm also considering a trip there around September/October. Given your French knowledge and your previous dabbling you should be able to pick up some basics and a decent understanding fairly quickly. Even if you're not able to speak much, being able to understand what's going on around you is a huge benefit for a relatively low amount of work. Just be careful, the trip might make you fall in love with the language and want to study it seriously, it happened to me... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Elenia Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom lilyonlife.blog Joined 3849 days ago 239 posts - 327 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Swedish, Esperanto | Message 120 of 129 30 June 2015 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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First off, I'd like to thank all of you for 'invading' my log, it makes for very interesting reading for me! (So, no need to apologise, Cavesa, I am very happy!)
I have been absent for a few days mostly because I haven't done anything much. This is partly due to real life happening suddenly and in large quantities, partly due to my immediate focus shifting... to my hair. Now that I have researched and done interesting and exciting thing to my hair with unexpected ingredients, I can turn my attention back to my languages. @Cavesa: Thank you for the recommendations! I'll definitely be checking them out. I'll try to flick through them when I'm in town before purchasing any more - what I should have done in the first place! I have a photocopy of La Grammaire Progressive: Perfectionnement from an old teacher, and it is incredibly comprehensive with so many exercises! And as you guessed, I have heard many a good thing about it, so I'd say it's a sure thing. The other two also sound extremely interesting. I may go PMs route and get all the grammar books - or at least, as many as my budget allows! With regards to FSI Swedish: I love it! A good thing to mention is that I didn't come to FSI a complete blank slate. I had used a paid version of lingq for a while as well as having done my own reading from the beginning. But I already feel more secure with Swedish grammar than with French, and that is probably because of the drills. The learning curve didn't feel very steep at all. I wasn't very good at documenting how I went through the lessons, but I think I did the first few lessons a few times: listening to them and reading them. I also used a premade FSI ANKI deck for the first few units. (The one I used before is no longer available, which is a shame as it was much better than the one I have now. But I am too lazy to make my own!) It is quite outdated in places, but not nearly as much as might be expected. The time period shows itself more in the actual sentences used than in the vocabulary: all the women were secretaries, all the men were officers in the army or sailors and smoked pipes. Also, there is naturally a portion of vocabulary about being an ambassador which I imagine most of us casual learners won't really need. Working through Duolingo Swedish has actually helped identify some of the words that were genuinely out of use (for example, 'att beställa' has apparently been replaced by 'att booka' for 'to book'...). I think I probably wasn't very coherent, but the long and short of it is that I would heartily recommend FSI to you, as it has been really helpful to me. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask, and I will do my best to answer them (and, hopefully, answer them well!) @Expug: Thank you also for the feedback and the explanations. A flick through of my current books reveals mostly morphology exercises, although the Ultimate Review and Practice does have one or two translation exercises. For now, I will just have to try and go through the things that I write and check them for grammar on my own, and then research any corrections I might get from Lang8 or here. I'll also take a look at the German grammar, as I definitely need it! So, it looks like a trip to the bookshop is in order! I will probably by them from a real life, bricks'n'mortar bookshop like Foyles rather than online, although it would be more expensive, as it would give me a chance to flick through them and to support the bookshop. @garyb - Yes, Italy is the place I've been looking, although I've heard excellent things about Portugal as well. The deciding factor will have to be price for this next trip, as I'll be going with my sister and my cousin who are both even poorer than I! Is there any place in particular that you would recommend? (Preferably some place with a large body of water. I'm not much of a swimmer, but I love being by large rivers, lakes and the sea). I wouldn't mind being tempted with Italian. In fact, the temptation has already started, as I've found an exceptionally cheap pizza place with good pizza and friendly Italian staff. I can't help but think it would be doubly nice to maybe chatter with them over my food, as long as they're game. --- So, as mentioned before, I haven't really done much with my languages for the past three/four days. I have somehow managed to keep up my duolingo streak, but I haven't really felt much like reading for Swedish. I have read a bit more of Die Legende der Drachenritter, and it is so far every bit as silly as I hoped, but progress is slow as I don't understand anything. I'll have to start this weeks second grammar concept today. Perhaps I'll force myself to write something using the concept I have already studied. It is a very simple one, and it makes sense, but I have never even thought about it before. It concerns the use of the future tense in a place where English uses the present (following when, as soon as, etc.) and I am sure I would use the present if I were speaking in French too. In fact, I'm sure I have. It is a tiny mistake, and it probably sounds more unnatural than erroneous, but I'd like to get rid of it. I took a break from writing this long post to make breakfast and write the commentary on the first text. I need to check it over again myself before submitting it to be checked on lang8, but at least it is done now. I decided to write down the terms I'd want to use and check the simple words first in English and then in French, which turned out to be a good idea. I used wikipedia and a literary website to search these terms and their usage, and found more interesting points than I would have if I simply relied on translating them or writing them directly without doing background checks. Some of this information also got incorporated into the final text. Let's look at how many of the weeks goals I've achieved. (A spoiler for you all: it's very, very little!)
Study TWO grammar concepts - 1/2 Watch an episode (30-45 mins) - 10mins watched Alternate between Mumin and Taxi - 2/4 Mumin, 1/3 Taxi Listen to Låt den rätta komma in - Listened to three pages Swedish dictation - not done Recording for the Output challenge - DONE Read more Violeta Violeta - Possibly? Or not? Read two chapters of German - :'( So. As we can see, not much has been done with only ONE goal completed. So, what will I do for the rest of today and tomorrow? Well, I don't want to overload on modernism, so no more D'ici là, except to perhaps review and edit the piece I've written. I can start a new grammar concept today, and do some exercises on it tomorrow. I will probably roll my study, so that I am constantly learning something new, but also constantly reviewing the old things. I can also fit in more watching. I was planning to watch an episode of Les Revenants last night, but I was too tired for that level of harrowing. But I can certainly look at some lighthearted chivalry of a questionable nature (Kaamelott). I can watch probably an episode more mumin both today and tomorrow, and the same amount of Taxi, so I'll reach the goal without too much problem at all. I probably won't get more listening done, and therefore I probably won't get any dictation done. My trouble with Låt den rätta komma in is the sense of dread that a good horror should inspire. I guess it's a slow burner as horrors go, and the scariest bit aren't the traditional monsters, and I'm trying to put off all this slow build up as much as possible. For German - well, I will probably read more Violeta Violeta... I've been put of reading German because of Tadoku, if you'll believe it. I benefit most from L-R, as I've said, but I can't work out how many repeats I will have made to update the bot. Kind of silly, really, but it's the truth... However, I can read more Drachenritter. I can't count pages, as the comic displays panel by panel, and naturally not all of the panels have words on them. But I can count sentences for tadoku, and pause whenever seems right for my own reading purposes. It's a fairly exhausting read for me, as barely understand anything at all. My German often feels like A0, although it is probably A1. It's just so hard to find a method that is effective and that I enjoy. I may have to see if I can find a library that has assimil allemand, and that will also give me membership... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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