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Open and closed vowels in Italian | ||
Tags: Pronunciation | Italian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| albysky Triglot Senior Member Italy lang-8.com/1108796Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4333 days ago 287 posts - 393 votes  Speaks: Italian*, English, German | Message 9 of 17 25 February 2014 at 10:41am | IP Logged | |||||
Come on , every Italian should be able to tell apart sètte from sétte , perchè from perché , óra from òra . I have no super power and i can clearly hear the difference . I agree , standard pronuciation is something that very few people have , on the whole i think if you pick up an audiobook a national tv or radio programm you should get to listen to something very close to the standard . Anyhow i would not worry too much about opened and closed vowels , everyone will understand you without effort if you speak clearly using decently grammar patterns 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| drygramul Tetraglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4413 days ago 165 posts - 269 votes Speaks: Persian, Italian*, EnglishC2, GermanB2 Studies: French, Polish | Message 10 of 17 25 February 2014 at 11:36am | IP Logged | |||||
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I understand the difference between an open and closed vocal, but we don't make difference in any of those words, we use the same sound, and that's the same for most of Italy (especially insular and northern Italy).
Why are you assuming that every Italian should be able to make those differences? Pronunciation of "standard Italian" is not taught at school, and for hundred of years this language was mostly written, not spoken. It's not an innate skill. I quote:
Are you aware of any zone of Italy where that "standard pronunciation" is used? Because I am not. And there's no point for a non-native speaker in learning these differences anyway, if it's intonation and stress pattern will never be anything like l'italiano comune. What I find most annoying with native speakers of Italian, is their ignorance of grammar and orthographic rules, which are indeed taught at school. I would focus more on those as an Italian or a foreigner. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4613 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 11 of 17 25 February 2014 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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But the dictionary standard pronunciation of Italian exists, just like there is a dictionary standard pronunciation of British English. Many Italians think highly of BBC English yet they don't care about RAI Italian. But it is the same thing more or less. It's easier to teach foreigners BBC/Oxford dictionary English pronunciation than London, Manchester, Sheffield, Blackburn etc accents. It's easier to teach foreigners RAI / Garzanti dictionary Italian pronunciation than Roman, Florentine, Milanese, Torinese, Bolognese, Genovese etc accents of Italian.
In real life, foreign learners will end up with the accent of the city they live in. But many foreigners learn Italian (or British English) outside Italy (and UK respectively). In English, the vowels in suck, sock, sack are all different, even though [sak] may be suck in one accent (Australian), but sock in another accent (Chicagoan), or sack in other accents (Western Canadian, Southeastern British) etc...Most Italians don't merge è and é, ò and ó, even though the distribution of words having these stressed vowels may be different from the dictionary standard. The luckiest learners will be those foreigners living around Siena or in Oxfordshire. Edited by Medulin on 25 February 2014 at 12:38pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| albysky Triglot Senior Member Italy lang-8.com/1108796Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4333 days ago 287 posts - 393 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, German | Message 12 of 17 25 February 2014 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
I totally agree on your last point . I meant that everyone can hear the difference between an opened a closed vowel , this does not imply you know what should be the standard "correct form ". Again i don t think there is a region where people speak 100 percent standard , there are places ,though ,where they speak in a more standard way than in others . As far as pure standard pronunciation is concerned , i think it has only to do with people like actors ,newscasters etc , who have attended some sort of dictio school . 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| albysky Triglot Senior Member Italy lang-8.com/1108796Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4333 days ago 287 posts - 393 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, German | Message 13 of 17 25 February 2014 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I say for instance :
Perchè Sétte Dénte As far as i know the standard should exactly be the opposite . Edited by albysky on 25 February 2014 at 6:33pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| drygramul Tetraglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4413 days ago 165 posts - 269 votes Speaks: Persian, Italian*, EnglishC2, GermanB2 Studies: French, Polish | Message 14 of 17 25 February 2014 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
There's another issue here. Most modern dictionaries have plagiarized the pronunciation from previous other dictionaries (mostly dictionaries of Tuscanian from 1800), they have not received any update and still contain mistakes, as those mistakes were just copied without any actual original work or research. We have a "standard" pronunciation because none really cared to verify if that's still up to date or even correct, and because we don't care about phonetics. The BBC has a standard pronunciation because they cared to build one.
I can't speak for Oxfordshire, but for Siena is not the case, even if that's the impression everyone gets. Their gorgia alone makes their pronunciation even more substandard than Romano. That's what I'm trying to explain, there's no such thing as a standard pronunciation in Italy. It's just a stereotype. And as far as I know, while you may actually make a good point (it would be easier to teach because somehow it's clearer), teachers who have studied diction are exceptional. I read somewhere else that you gave up with Italian because of this. I'll tell you what, I would have done the same if such an useless effort would be expected from me. I am not making it easy for you, I am really annoyed by mistakes and even a poor language, but if I were you I would stick to a regional pronunciation (or a mix of two at most) that you like or find easy, and try again. I don't even have Italian ancestry, so no nationalism involved here. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| drygramul Tetraglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4413 days ago 165 posts - 269 votes Speaks: Persian, Italian*, EnglishC2, GermanB2 Studies: French, Polish | Message 15 of 17 25 February 2014 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
For me is not such an easy task. I can figure out that perché in my zone is [perˈkɛː] because I pay attention to the position of my tongue, but I can't hear distinctly the difference while pronouncing it, I feel like I'm 70% certain, never 100%. While speaking with other peoples it would be even harder, I would need to focus on a single word from time to time. There's not enough contrast for my ear. I hear the contrast with other substandard pronunciations inside Lombardy, which are more marked (bergamasco). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4613 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 16 of 17 25 February 2014 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Romans are really annoyed when Southerners and Northeasterners (from Udine) fail to pronounce Roma as Róma (but use a more open kind of vowel).
Veneto is pronounced Vèneto in Veneto and in Central Italy, but Véneto but many Lombardians. Còmo is standard pronunciation, while Cómo is the local variant. People from Florence don't like to hear their city pronounced as Firénze (with the close vowel). Etc. Edited by Medulin on 25 February 2014 at 9:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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