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English: Random Question (Double Perfect) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6542 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 17 of 35 16 March 2014 at 7:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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You used it in 4, 6, 11, though always with "not".
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| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4027 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 18 of 35 16 March 2014 at 8:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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No, I used "had have had", which is legit, albeit nonstandard.
"had have done" seems wrong to me. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6542 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 19 of 35 16 March 2014 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | ||
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Your "had" is part of a modal verb though. In truly legitimate structures you can replace "have to" with another word, like "do" or "take". So now you see how wrong your example sentences look to the rest of us :/
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| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4027 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 20 of 35 16 March 2014 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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This is interesting. There is surely an interesting topic on how language learning works
somewhere in here. I did not learn English "by grammar" so logic is just absent for me. I can only tell what sounds right, and what sounds not so right. I wonder where I got exposed to the double perfect. Cuz "had have had" sounds perfectly fine to me, while "had have done" seems outright wrong. But still, you said I wrote something, which I had not :) Edited by Gemuse on 16 March 2014 at 9:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6542 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 21 of 35 16 March 2014 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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I said you had used this structure. "do" is the standard default verb for generic structures.
What sounds right to us may be blurred by many things. Like the repetition of "had" or other purely phonetic issues. "had have done" is also double perfect, and to most native/fluent speakers it's the same degree of wrong/non-standard as your examples. It's mentioned on the about.com page you've got a link to, for example. TBH, I think it's more about *not* having exposure to the correct structures. I really don't mean it personally (I myself LOVE natural learning), but it's kinda like a kid who pronounces the k in knee (in English). The kid is simply making a mistake, not speaking German. Edited by Serpent on 16 March 2014 at 9:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4027 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 22 of 35 17 March 2014 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | ||
Could you quote that example here? I cannot find "had have done" on the about.com page. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6542 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 23 of 35 17 March 2014 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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(9i) If it had've come yesterday he would surely have told her.
(9ii) I wish he hadn't've left. and similar: you know very well that your Party would have had to have done something uh if it had come back to power If any example on about.com looks wrong to you, then well this is what your examples look like to us, sorry :/ 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4027 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 24 of 35 17 March 2014 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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"...to have done" is fine for me. I am talking about the particular phrase "had have
done" which sounds wrong, and which does not appear on the about.com page. Gotta stick a "to" in there. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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