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Wann bist du geboren? (German) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4652 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 41 of 71 12 January 2014 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I know, but the basis of the system is the worden/sein (zijn) difference, which doesn't exist in English at all and is therefore harder to translate passive with zijn/sein means that the action is finished - a passive with worden means it's ongoing. Using the word "state" is a bit deceptive - "state" can imply a static or a dynamic state which can be either. The thing to know about the "sein" forms is that the action IS that way and that any changes have been terminated - it's is in the same sense that Die Katze ist klein. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5728 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 42 of 71 12 January 2014 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Surely a state is static by definition? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4652 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 43 of 71 12 January 2014 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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No. A state can be dynamic.
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| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4235 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 44 of 71 13 January 2014 at 12:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Even steady state is dynamic, but in dynamic equilibrium. Also the zijn/sein construction used to be present in English several centuries before ,as English had the distinction with "to have" and "to be" in the perfect tenses: Middle English: I am born in 1763. Modern English: I was born in 1763. Middle English: We are arrived at the restaurant. Modern English: We have arrived at the restaurant. Middle English: Art þou returned home yet? Modern English: Have you returned home yet? Middle English: Is she ever travelled to Mameceaster before? Modern English: Has she ever travelled to Manchester before? Middle English: Is he ever been to Norway? --Yes he is been there. Modern English: Has he ever been to Norway? --Yes he has been there. Edited by 1e4e6 on 13 January 2014 at 12:19am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5728 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 45 of 71 13 January 2014 at 12:21am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Hi, Tarvos. You're going to have to explain this please because that wasn't my understanding, not at all. I thought that "no change" (static) was part of the very definition of a state in lexical aspect.
Sure, but we're not talking physics/chemistry here. We're talking lexical aspect (states, activities, achievements and accomplishments). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5728 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 46 of 71 13 January 2014 at 12:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
This is widely known (I already knew it), it's something even Michel Thomas points out in his courses (so just a few hours into learning German); but these are just past tenses, not passives. AFAIK "Wann bist du geboren?" is not analogous to "Wann bist du gekommen?" (which last I don't find the slightest bit strange) because "gebären" means "to bear" and not "to be born" Edited by Random review on 13 January 2014 at 12:26am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4652 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 47 of 71 13 January 2014 at 11:02am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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A state is a snapshot in time. The snapshot can indicate a terminated action or an action
in progress. It's like taking a picture of a railway station - if the picture shows a completed station (say, King's Cross), it's been built, but it can also show King's cross under construction. That's a state of existence in which King's Cross's construction is an ongoing process, but it's still a state. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4789 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 48 of 71 13 January 2014 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Yeah, those "dynamic states" would be expressed by present participles: "a flying bird" etc.
However, it would be less confusing to call a "dynamic state" simply "process". Edited by Josquin on 13 January 2014 at 1:57pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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