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Interjection im/perfective Rus - Croatian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Evanitious Triglot Newbie France Joined 4464 days ago 36 posts - 39 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC1, Italian | Message 1 of 19 16 January 2014 at 12:04am | IP Logged | ||
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Hi.
I would like to understand the difference between the perfective/imperfective when "interjecting" someone. When you're talking to a person and then say something like "look !", "wait !". Because I've heard them several times when watching TV shows, and honestly, I don't get the difference, at all. They seem interchangeable to me in this case. I have one example in Croatian with "look!". Pogledaj ! Gledaj ! Gledaj me (look at me), etc.... In Russian I have one example, sorry if it's misspelled, I mainly focus on watching TV shows and writing is not my main goal. Often I hear "listen!". слуши ! послуши ! (I'm not sure it's written correctly, but basically what I hear is kind of like "sushi" with an "L" : slushi / paslushi) Thanks in advance for your help. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6542 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 2 of 19 16 January 2014 at 4:06am | IP Logged | ||
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Well, I'd say it depends on how long the wanted action lasts. Pogledaj/посмотри would be like "have a look!" I would say, whereas слушай (slushai) kinda implies "listen to me, I'm going to speak for long". It can get muuuuch more subtle than this though, for example poslushai might add the meaning of "please consider this"/"please reply my question".
It's more straightforward with non-human sounds, though. poslushai implies that if you don't "catch" the sound, soon it will be too late. Like the other person has heard an isolated sound twice, and doesn't expect it to reoccur more than a few times. poslushai is often more urgent. Or if there's a bird singing... slushai=let's just stay here and listen, awww awww awww. poslushai=listen to the bird's song while we have time, listen a little and then move on. Something like this. They are often interchangeable, but in some contexts only one aspect feels right :/ Edited by Serpent on 16 January 2014 at 4:19am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7101 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 3 of 19 16 January 2014 at 4:44am | IP Logged | ||
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Serpent's comments remind me of a rule of thumb that I was taught by my Czech and Polish teachers. There's a tendency for a positive command (one that is not translated with "don't") to use the perfective aspect (e.g. pogledaj!) where the emphasis is to complete the action (makes sense since with positive imperative/command), whereas the negative command tends to use the imperfective aspect (e.g. ne gledaj! / nemoj gledati!). The emphasis is not to complete the action.
However there is also a nuance where using an imperfective verb rather than the perfective counterpart in a positive command implies a somewhat gentler tone or emphasizes that you're being asked or commanded to do that action for a longer time (emphasis is on the duration rather than the result as implied by using the perfective verb). Compare Serpent's comments of слушай versus послушай relative to one being told in reaction to a bird's song. With my background in BCMS/SC, gledaj me! sounds a bit more to me like "please, look at me!" (in a slightly friendly way and/or I want you to relish the action of looking at me instead of looking so that you will find something on me) whereas pogledaj me! sounds a bit more like "look at me!" (not necessarily in a friendly way, and take note of something that I want you to find as you look at me). Sometimes though it indeed comes down to what "sounds" right to the native ear, and it eludes a neat organization along the lines above. See starting here in this presentation for some examples in Slavonic languages and guidelines used in choosing one aspect over the other in imperative. Edited by Chung on 16 January 2014 at 4:54am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6087 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 4 of 19 16 January 2014 at 4:46am | IP Logged | ||
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I agree with Serpent's and Chung's analyses. Here are a few example sentences/contexts for each of "gledaj" and "pogledaj," as I understand them.
Gledaj me dok ti pričam! - "Look at me while I'm talking to you!" Gledaj televiziju tamo, pišem zadaću ovdje! (actually odi gledati would sound more natural here, but it's still using "gledati" rather than "pogledati") - "Watch TV over there, I'm doing homework here!" Nemoj je tako gledati, nije ti pristojno. - "Don't look at her like that, it's not polite." Pogledaj kako smiješno mi je brat ispao na ovoj slici! - "Look how funny my brother looks in this picture!" Pogledaj onu baku kako prelazi cestu! - "Look at that old lady crossing the street!" Pogledaj me, uspjela sam popeti se skroz do vrha! - "Look at me, I climbed all the way to the top!" Edited by ellasevia on 16 January 2014 at 7:36pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6542 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 5 of 19 16 January 2014 at 5:35am | IP Logged | ||
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Great examples!
Although at least in Russian imperfective would sound fine in all sentences where you use pogledaj. But not the opposite. Edit: I guess it's important to point out that slushai/poslushai are often used like "listen" or "you see" in English. More of a filler/way of attracting attention than actually a request to listen. Of course sometimes it implies that the other person is not listening, but often it's rather neutral. Smotri is used like that too, but there's a clearer distinction and posmotri always involves literally looking at something/checking something. Edit 2: if we take the example with "look at my bro in this pic", in Russian I'd use perfective (posmotri/посмотри) if the person is doing something else and you interrupt them to show the photo. If the person is actually already looking, and you're noting something ("look, this one is so funny!", "haha look at his hair" etc), then imperfective is better because focusing on the funny part of the photo isn't really a big complete action in itself. It's only a complete, proper action if you want the person to interrupt what they're doing and look at the photo asap because it's so funny. Wow complicated :P One More Edit: as for TV, I think this example demonstrates the difference nicely: if you only need for example an hour to finish your homework, and then you'll be happy to watch TV with the other person, in Russian you can use posmotri, implying that you ask them to let you concentrate BUT you want them to come back after that. Edited by Serpent on 16 January 2014 at 5:57am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6087 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 6 of 19 16 January 2014 at 5:56am | IP Logged | ||
Yeah, that's true. But if you were to use the imperfective instead of the perfective in those sentences, it would change the nuance, of course. With the first sentence, it would imply that you should spend a long time examining the picture; in the second, it might imply that you will be looking for an extended period of time because the old woman is walking slowly; and in third sentence, it might imply that you should look at the girl and then continue watching her. Edit 1: I agree with your edits to, especially with the note about watching TV. "Odi pogledati televiziju tamo" would be perfectly acceptable in the case you described. Edit 2: I also agree with your post below (I couldn't be bothered to post a new comment), but I think that whether it's the perfective or imperfective that changes the nuance of the sentence is simply a matter of perspective and is contingent upon which verbal aspect you would normally expect from a given scenario. Especially with the old woman, the "default" might be the imperfective, since old women tend to walk slowly, but the usage of perfective would then change the nuance to imply that you should look quickly, perhaps because of how (surprisingly) quickly the old woman is moving. Indeed, my original sentence was actually "Pogledaj kako brzo ona baka prelazi cestu!" Edited by ellasevia on 16 January 2014 at 6:09am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6542 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 7 of 19 16 January 2014 at 6:01am | IP Logged | ||
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TBH (and again I'm speaking only about my native Russian), for me it's the perfective that changes the nuance, normally towards a "fast! turn and have a look!" thing. With the old lady it could imply that she's walking/running surprisingly fast across the street :D I would also tend to use "posmotri skoree" rather than just posmotri. Edited by Serpent on 16 January 2014 at 6:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6542 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 8 of 19 16 January 2014 at 6:28am | IP Logged | ||
Also I would say that (again, in Russian) smotri=look, posmotri=watch. More or less. Edited by Serpent on 16 January 2014 at 6:33am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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