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josht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6448 days ago
635 posts - 857 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: French, Spanish, Russian, Dutch
| Message 65 of 87 14 April 2009 at 12:09am | IP Logged |
slucido: he does both. If you read his profile thread and his log, you'll find that he makes word lists from stuff he reads, as well as opening dictionaries at random and grabbing words.
1 person has voted this message useful
| slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6677 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English
| Message 66 of 87 14 April 2009 at 12:13am | IP Logged |
josht wrote:
If a word has multiple meanings depending on the context, those meanings are given. Indeed, perhaps somewhat ironically, it could be argued that you can get more "context" for a word by looking at a quality dictionary entry than you can from reading one sentence with the word in it.
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I don't have anything against dictionaries. I think a good dictionary can work pretty well for some people. My problem is that working with dictionaries is boring for me and I cannot work with enough intensity. I cannot get the flow state.
1 person has voted this message useful
| josht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6448 days ago
635 posts - 857 votes
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: French, Spanish, Russian, Dutch
| Message 67 of 87 14 April 2009 at 12:19am | IP Logged |
slucido wrote:
josht wrote:
If a word has multiple meanings depending on the context, those meanings are given. Indeed, perhaps somewhat ironically, it could be argued that you can get more "context" for a word by looking at a quality dictionary entry than you can from reading one sentence with the word in it.
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I don't have anything against dictionaries. I think a good dictionary can work pretty well for some people. My problem is that working with dictionaries is boring for me and I cannot work with enough intensity. I cannot get the flow state.
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I guess we're opposites, then. I've found that using Iversen's word list method, I really drop into a nice rhythm of pulling words, learning them, etc. I can work on word lists for about an hour or so before I'm ready to move on to something else.
I also just like dictionaries. When I'm doing my word lists, it's just me and a big dictionary, full of stuff for me to learn. Sometimes I'll read a page or two of one of my dictionaries before going to bed. Perhaps I'm just weird, however. :-)
1 person has voted this message useful
| Steve Kaufmann
Newbie
Canada
thelinguist.blogs.co
Joined 5707 days ago
20 posts - 24 votes
| Message 68 of 87 14 April 2009 at 12:22am | IP Logged |
josht wrote:
icing_death wrote:
Steve Kaufmann wrote:
The flash cards at LingQ are based on words and phrases that come from context the
learner has read and/or listened to. |
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Many people consider studying flashcards to be studying out of context. Most people who study lists and
flashcards have taken them from context, just like you. It's good to keep this in mind when you criticize studying
wordlists.
And some people who study words out of context by your definition, Iversen for example, do just fine. I think just
about everyone studies out of context. What we're really discussing is where to draw the line. |
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I think that's a very good point. People who are against the use of word lists often talk about them as if there is no context provided, which usually isn't the case. Iversen often pulls the words he's learning straight from a dictionary, and at least with a dictionary worth anything, lots of context is given. In all of my good dictionaries, a topic will be marked with a symbol or abbreviation (healthcare, aviation, etc.); example phrases will be given (or sometimes, whole sentences). If a word has multiple meanings depending on the context, those meanings are given. Indeed, perhaps somewhat ironically, it could be argued that you can get more "context" for a word by looking at a quality dictionary entry than you can from reading one sentence with the word in it.
Furthermore, in regards to verbs, good dictionaries will indicate how to use them - whether it takes an accusative object, or is reflexive, or what have you. I'll happily admit that to just learn verbs - the single word, with nothing else along with it - along with its translation would be rather futile. |
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I think that an important aspect of language learning is what I call resonance. I recently provided more detail at my blog.
http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_learn_english_and/2009/0 4/resonance-in-language-acquisition-the-great-imponderable.h tml
We feed off resonance, because language learning is more effective if our emotions are engaged. I find dictionary examples to be "low resonance" and hard to remember. I also find grammar explanations in dictionaries to be distractions. I just want a quick hint so I can figure out the meaning of what I am reading. I expect the full meaning and usage of a new word to define itself as I encounter it again and again. Seeing the word highlighted when I encounter it again in a new context, and remembering or reviewing previous examples of the word in use all help create resonance for the word.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Steve Kaufmann
Newbie
Canada
thelinguist.blogs.co
Joined 5707 days ago
20 posts - 24 votes
| Message 69 of 87 14 April 2009 at 12:26am | IP Logged |
josht wrote:
Steve Kaufmann wrote:
Many people study isolated lists of words in preparation for tests like TOEFL etc. Most of them do not get a very good return from this investment of time. That is what I was referring to by "studying words out of context" You chose to interpret this differently. Noted.
All lists and flashcards at LingQ have captured the phrase where the words occurred, and provide access to all examples from familiar contexts where this words occurs.
I believe it is difficult to learn words without having met them, and more than once, in meaningful contexts. I always advise learners that reviewing words only helps them to become more observant of the language, but it will not usually enable them to "learn" these words. That is why, at LingQ, we highlight all previously saved words in yellow in subsequent texts, to remind us that we have already started to try to learn these words, and for quick access to the ,often, already forgotten meaning.
There are obviously others, like Iversen, who have a different approach. Noted. |
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Have you ever considered altering how LingQ works a bit, by showing the word in the context of the entire sentence, as opposed to the "phrase" - that is, just the few surrounding words? I checked out how LingQ has developed since I last gave it a try, and while I like how things have progressed, I personally would find seeing the word in the whole sentence more helpful than within just the few surrounding words. I suppose the whole sentence approach might become cumbersome if the sentence is quite long, though. |
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We chose the phrase form because it is easier to just grab 4 words to either side of a saved word, and because much of our content consists of conversations which are transcribed after the fact. We could work with periods but the distance between periods can be quite long in a conversation.
But you have a point and this is one of many many items we are going to look at as we continue to improve the system. We may leave the "phrases" and enable a drill down to a sentence. We will see.
1 person has voted this message useful
| josht
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6448 days ago
635 posts - 857 votes
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: French, Spanish, Russian, Dutch
| Message 70 of 87 14 April 2009 at 12:29am | IP Logged |
Steve Kaufmann wrote:
josht wrote:
Steve Kaufmann wrote:
Many people study isolated lists of words in preparation for tests like TOEFL etc. Most of them do not get a very good return from this investment of time. That is what I was referring to by "studying words out of context" You chose to interpret this differently. Noted.
All lists and flashcards at LingQ have captured the phrase where the words occurred, and provide access to all examples from familiar contexts where this words occurs.
I believe it is difficult to learn words without having met them, and more than once, in meaningful contexts. I always advise learners that reviewing words only helps them to become more observant of the language, but it will not usually enable them to "learn" these words. That is why, at LingQ, we highlight all previously saved words in yellow in subsequent texts, to remind us that we have already started to try to learn these words, and for quick access to the ,often, already forgotten meaning.
There are obviously others, like Iversen, who have a different approach. Noted. |
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Have you ever considered altering how LingQ works a bit, by showing the word in the context of the entire sentence, as opposed to the "phrase" - that is, just the few surrounding words? I checked out how LingQ has developed since I last gave it a try, and while I like how things have progressed, I personally would find seeing the word in the whole sentence more helpful than within just the few surrounding words. I suppose the whole sentence approach might become cumbersome if the sentence is quite long, though. |
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We chose the phrase form because it is easier to just grab 4 words to either side of a saved word, and because much of our content consists of conversations which are transcribed after the fact. We could work with periods but the distance between periods can be quite long in a conversation.
But you have a point and this is one of many many items we are going to look at as we continue to improve the system. We may leave the "phrases" and enable a drill down to a sentence. We will see. |
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Yeah, I suppose it would pose troublesome problems.
One other question: any chance of seeing accents implemented for Russian?
1 person has voted this message useful
| Steve Kaufmann
Newbie
Canada
thelinguist.blogs.co
Joined 5707 days ago
20 posts - 24 votes
| Message 71 of 87 14 April 2009 at 12:34am | IP Logged |
josht wrote:
Steve Kaufmann wrote:
josht wrote:
Steve Kaufmann wrote:
Many people study isolated lists of words in preparation for tests like TOEFL etc. Most of them do not get a very good return from this investment of time. That is what I was referring to by "studying words out of context" You chose to interpret this differently. Noted.
All lists and flashcards at LingQ have captured the phrase where the words occurred, and provide access to all examples from familiar contexts where this words occurs.
I believe it is difficult to learn words without having met them, and more than once, in meaningful contexts. I always advise learners that reviewing words only helps them to become more observant of the language, but it will not usually enable them to "learn" these words. That is why, at LingQ, we highlight all previously saved words in yellow in subsequent texts, to remind us that we have already started to try to learn these words, and for quick access to the ,often, already forgotten meaning.
There are obviously others, like Iversen, who have a different approach. Noted. |
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Have you ever considered altering how LingQ works a bit, by showing the word in the context of the entire sentence, as opposed to the "phrase" - that is, just the few surrounding words? I checked out how LingQ has developed since I last gave it a try, and while I like how things have progressed, I personally would find seeing the word in the whole sentence more helpful than within just the few surrounding words. I suppose the whole sentence approach might become cumbersome if the sentence is quite long, though. |
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We chose the phrase form because it is easier to just grab 4 words to either side of a saved word, and because much of our content consists of conversations which are transcribed after the fact. We could work with periods but the distance between periods can be quite long in a conversation.
But you have a point and this is one of many many items we are going to look at as we continue to improve the system. We may leave the "phrases" and enable a drill down to a sentence. We will see. |
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Yeah, I suppose it would pose troublesome problems.
One other question: any chance of seeing accents implemented for Russian? |
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The content goes into our library in whatever form our members contribute it. We could ask those of our members who create or contribute beginner or lower intermediate content in Russian to provide accents for some of the items. Not a bad suggestion. However, we really want learners to listen. You can listen while reading, and listen on your MP3 player so the accents are kind of like training wheels and the sooner you get rid of them the better, I think.
1 person has voted this message useful
| slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6677 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English
| Message 72 of 87 14 April 2009 at 12:36am | IP Logged |
josht wrote:
slucido wrote:
josht wrote:
If a word has multiple meanings depending on the context, those meanings are given. Indeed, perhaps somewhat ironically, it could be argued that you can get more "context" for a word by looking at a quality dictionary entry than you can from reading one sentence with the word in it.
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I don't have anything against dictionaries. I think a good dictionary can work pretty well for some people. My problem is that working with dictionaries is boring for me and I cannot work with enough intensity. I cannot get the flow state.
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I guess we're opposites, then. I've found that using Iversen's word list method, I really drop into a nice rhythm of pulling words, learning them, etc. I can work on word lists for about an hour or so before I'm ready to move on to something else.
I also just like dictionaries. When I'm doing my word lists, it's just me and a big dictionary, full of stuff for me to learn. Sometimes I'll read a page or two of one of my dictionaries before going to bed. Perhaps I'm just weird, however. :-) |
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When I repeatedly say that there aren't best methods and the most important factors are intensity and time, I am taking about the flow (focus) state.
Why?
Because if you find a method that generates these flow feelings, you will work harder, with more intensity and more time.
Dictionaries are a good method for you. Some people love grammar and grammar books are a good method for them. These are "high resonance" methods for them. Subjective stuff that I think it's very important to recognize and assess.
1 person has voted this message useful
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