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Tarvos - TAC 2015 Pushkin/Scan | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5548 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 177 of 1511 26 June 2012 at 8:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Well done on your first multilingual vlog! If I didn't already know you were Dutch, I'd have initially thought you were British. :)
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| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5218 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 178 of 1511 26 June 2012 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Mapk, palatalization may be kind of difficult to understand (let alone master) for learners not familiar with it, depending on how they're studying, their focus on/understanding of phonetics, etc. I know for a fact that Spanish ñ --very similar to Russian soft n-- is at first extremely difficult for native English speakers to tell apart from n, mostly because there are no such pairs in their language. Now, since I grew up with the n/ñ I never had major problems with hard- vs softness yet I struggle all the time with hard/soft l even if I theoretically know what to do. My Russian friends say Spanish l is just halfway between those two Russian sounds, so I don't need to learn one extra sound but two, and, to make things worse, they are both similar to yet different enough from the one that I spontaneously tend to make. Sometimes a little elaboration is necessary :)
Now this is an interesting issue I bump into all the time. I don't remember a single concrete area in which I react like most people I know (and like), so I tend to avoid direct comments unless I know the addressee either personally or over a long enough period of time. I've given up to understand this at a 'cultural' level (and act accordingly because 'Germans are like this and Japanese like that') since I tend to be interested just in meaningful relationships with interesting people, and the good ones shouldn't be too easy to scare... Too often I forget that people may be rather unclear on whether something is mostly working or not and/or very different on how [un]important some issues are to them, and I omit that part. When I say right away 'you should work on X,Y,Z' I usually mean that it's mostly OK and it can be further polished by working on that, whereas if I am forced to say something good and I say 'this is so pretty' (or some other thing generally unimportant to me) I mean that it's a general disaster and I haven't found anything more important to praise. Obvious to people who know me well, not so much to others -- bringing the fun in since the 80s ;-) Edited by mrwarper on 26 June 2012 at 9:55pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s0fist Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5038 days ago 260 posts - 445 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Sign Language, German, Spanish, French | Message 179 of 1511 27 June 2012 at 1:34am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I wouldn't call this directness. I'd sooner call this purposefulness or maybe utilitarianism.
There's a difference between posting a video to receive, option one, encouragement and validation from others and posting a video with express purpose of receiving, possibility number two, corrections and feedback specific enough to allow improvement. If there's a mismatch between what the author of the video wanted and what the commenter provided, there's little utility because the author failed to receive what s/he wants and the commenter failed to confer his intent/knowledge onto the other. So there's perceived rudeness (by virtue of content) by either or both sides (in the following sense: don't bother me with this useless response vs. don't ask for a response if you didn't want to get one). If there's no mismatch, there's mutual utility and consequently no rudeness (by virtue of content). There's of course always a possibility to be rude by virtue of presentation, regardless of whether there's a mismatch between perceived utilities. So, I don't see Mark's response as being direct or nondirect, but rather I say that Mark was smart enough to model tarvos's RFC as asking for specific criticisms and tarvos was skillful enough to convey to his audience what he was asking for. Similarly I'm sure when Cristin asks for feedback on her own video she will do so in a way that lets her audience know what she wants, and I'm sure her audience, to wit Mark and tarvos, would be suave enough to shape their responses to fit her utility. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4699 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 180 of 1511 27 June 2012 at 10:33am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Ain't no way in hell it's both, right?
Nah, I don't mind Mark's commentary - I just don't know what it means practically so I'm no nearer reaching my goal anyway. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5048 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 181 of 1511 27 June 2012 at 11:30am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
You have to raise the middle of the tongue to the roof of your mouth, as if you wanted to say or [j], and, holding the middle of the tongue in this position, pronounce any consonant, it will be palatalized. Actually you manage to pronounce soft T and D, for example. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5218 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 182 of 1511 27 June 2012 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Heh, so much for trying to help ;( OK, I recurrently link this which I always thought should help with pronunciation so let's give it another try.
@Марк, would you mind commenting on that link for the umpteenth time? My Russian friends were never a great help with that part anyway and, according to the figures, the middle part of the tongue isn't raised for neither hard nor soft "l" -- OK, in soft l the middle is a bit higher, but it is seemingly just because the tip is risen higher and more to the back, with the whole tongue forming more or less a straight line. Edited by mrwarper on 27 June 2012 at 12:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5048 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 183 of 1511 27 June 2012 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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probably it is correct, the recording is certainly correct. For hard L make sure you do
not touch the alveols by any part of the tongue, only teeth. Soft L is close to Russian soft, especially in the end of a syllable. If you follow my instruction, you will get the sound right. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5775 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 184 of 1511 27 June 2012 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Sorry to go off topic, I don't study Russian but can I just ask mrwarper if he knows an
equivalent to that link he posted (the Russian phonetics one) for any other languages? I'd love to find such a thing for Greek, for instance. Thanks in advance and sorry for going off topic. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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