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Benny Lewis | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| translator2 Senior Member United States Joined 6918 days ago 848 posts - 1862 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 129 of 164 23 May 2012 at 11:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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That is a great article.
I have been able to speak another language for so long (over 25 years) that I completely forgot that someone who has never learned a language has no idea how long it would take and may be more gullible to the "speak Portuguese in a week" or similar marketing campaigns. Fluent German in three months sounds plausible to someone just starting out, but to someone who has studied German for over 10 years, it sounds impossible.
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| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 130 of 164 24 May 2012 at 12:21am | IP Logged | |||||
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It's all a matter of semantics. I don't claim to have learned French in three weeks (and I haven't), but I'm sure that if I spend 3 months intensively with French I'll speak a whole lot better French. How much better French exactly? Maybe I can get to B2, who knows. Is that fluency? I don't know.
I don't care. Just because you think talent is more important just means I won't give up learning even if it's just to prove you wrong. And by the way, people would describe me as "talented at languages", whereas in reality I am no more talented than anyone else - it's all about exposure. And in that sense Benny is completely right - what he does is basically full-on exposure for three months forcing yourself to use that and only that language. Whether you call that "perfect fluency" doesn't matter because his idea of fluency is not yours (and yours does not hold more sway because you are a moderator or a linguist or a professional translator; it holds more sway because the argument's been built up properly). But if you enjoy thinking it, have fun thinking what you think. I'm glad I'm human and have got the mind and ability to achieve something extraordinary as a mere mortal :) 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5344 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 131 of 164 24 May 2012 at 12:53am | IP Logged | |||||
I do. And you won't. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4888 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 132 of 164 24 May 2012 at 2:19am | IP Logged | |||||
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3 months at 8 hours a day equals 720 hours, which should be enough to achieve a basic
level of fluency, and perhaps reach B2 / C1. The whole US Foreign Service language academy is predicated on reaching this level in the same amount of time. The US Peace Corps brings its volunteers up to a much lower level of fluency (perhaps A2 or B1?), but in a shorter period of time. While I do believe that some people have more talent than others, there's nothing really extraordinary about achieving fluency in three months of immersion; it would take more focus and determination than outright skill. - This is more focus than I probably have, mind you. I don't think it would be easy; just eminently possible. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| translator2 Senior Member United States Joined 6918 days ago 848 posts - 1862 votes Speaks: English* | Message 133 of 164 24 May 2012 at 3:55am | IP Logged | |||||
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Fluency in three months = absolutely NO WAY! I don't care how much you film yourself in front of native speakers while you nod your head and pretend like you are understanding.
But of course my definition of fluency is not the dumbed down "my pencil is yellow" version. To me, fluency = very high proficiency and something close to complete mastery (not necessarily perfect pronunciation, but an extensive vocabulary and the ability to express yourself, be understood and understand others in almost any normal situation.) You just cannot assimilate (not just learn) this knowledge and train your brain to comprehend a new language in three months, six months, or even a year. However, telling people that they will have to study day and night for 1-2 years would not sell a whole lot of books.
Edited by translator2 on 24 May 2012 at 4:03am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5344 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 134 of 164 24 May 2012 at 4:48am | IP Logged | |||||
From Foreign Service Institute: Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching:
Also note that their estimate for achieving some form of fluency in Category 1 languages is in fact closer to six months under the best conditions and full study intensity. I'm not sure how this level would relate to CEFR ratings though:
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| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5632 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 135 of 164 24 May 2012 at 5:01am | IP Logged | |||||
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"However, telling people that they will have to study day and night for 1-2 years would not sell a whole lot of books."
Day and night for 1-2 years? There are 8760 hours in a year and 17,520 in two. I think you'll find plenty of people who have learned a language to what you consider fluency in less than eight thousand hours. Whatever the ideal number of dedicated hours are for a particular person, that's how long it takes. You can do it casually and it will indeed take years, or you can do it intensively in a way that would be too stressful for most, and it will take months, or something in between. This is quite simple Mathematics. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4706 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 136 of 164 24 May 2012 at 9:25am | IP Logged | |||||
I'm at a solid B1, I am pretty sure that is possible. Also, at the risk of sounding like Locke: Don't tell me what I can and can't do :) Edited by tarvos on 24 May 2012 at 9:27am 12 persons have voted this message useful |
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