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Russian is past, Chinese is future? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| FM_Moltke Bilingual Tetraglot Groupie Germany Joined 6608 days ago 54 posts - 58 votes  Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, German, French Studies: Polish, Latin | Message 129 of 150 27 September 2010 at 12:14am | IP Logged | ||
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It is deceptive to judge solely on the basis of economic of demographic statistics. There are several intrinsic factors which will limit the expansion of the Mandarin language.
There is the condition that the Chinese themselves are not eager to export their language, no more than they are to export their culture. To the extent that a few foreigners elect to take interest in either, it flatters their nationalism, but to the extent that all foreigners should become expert in either, they find repugnant. The second condition is that languages do not rise simultaneously with military or economic power. Its rise can be much more closely approximated with cultural prestige, in which power is a component (unfortunately in this day of statistical mania, some rate it as the most powerful component,) but not always decisive. Italian, French, German and English would not have attained universal prominence had their not been some virtue of their respective nations which other nations wished to consciously imitate. In this vein, China comes off badly. Her primary strength lies in quantity, not in quality. Her numbers no nation in the West can imitate, and beyond her numerical strength, there is little in her which the West finds worthy of imitation. "Made in china" may convey a sense of economic profligacy, but not of cultural admiration. The "rise" of China may be a reality, but it's a rise in consequence of China imitating the West, and not vice-versa. Finally, although Russian may suffer many of the same problems as Mandarin in this respect, it begins on a sounder basis. Russian literature, theatre and history have much greater penetration in the West than in China. Russian history is also an integral part of Western history, without which most of the west cannot understand their own pasts. Furthermore, Russian's status as the largest language of the Slavic family will give it easier penetration into Europe, particularly if Russia should one day become integrated within Europe. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6932 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 130 of 150 27 September 2010 at 12:55am | IP Logged | ||
Cultural prestige can change over time. The US gained in cultural status after becoming a wealthier nation. It takes time, but it can be done. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Aquila123 Tetraglot Senior Member Norway mydeltapi.com Joined 5295 days ago 201 posts - 262 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Italian, Spanish Studies: Finnish, Russian | Message 131 of 150 28 September 2010 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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To be a little rude:
If some strange superior power decided that either Navajo or Chinese should be the language of all international communication, but the language should be chosen by election, I would vote for Navajo, without doubt. The reason is simply this; I find it a waste of time and energy to learn the writing system of Chinese or Japanese. Therefore I would rather learn any language that use a simple writing system, regardless how intricate it is otherwise. The writing system is the real and all-decisive weakness of Chinese. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| morganie Newbie United States Joined 5413 days ago 31 posts - 41 votes Studies: Mandarin | Message 132 of 150 28 September 2010 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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Do you think that if a Chinese language becomes the lingua franca, the Chinese would somehow try to make their language easier by simplifying the characters even more or removing them altogether?
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| jasoninchina Senior Member China Joined 5220 days ago 221 posts - 306 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Italian | Message 133 of 150 29 September 2010 at 6:14am | IP Logged | ||
Simplified Chinese is already pretty watered down compared to traditional, so I doubt it could be simplified further without completely changing it. As far as doing away with it completely, it's possible but not likely any time soon. Many people (especially the young) can read pinyin, but the characters themselves are quite important to the history and culture of the country. And if the Chinese love anything, it's their culture and history. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6571 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 134 of 150 29 September 2010 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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Chairman Mao tried to romanize Mandarin (Pinyin was designed as a replacement for the characters) and failed. That's a clear indicator that it's hard to get rid of them.
Then again, there are today many Chinese who find it difficult to write Mandarin with a pen. They can read without problems, and they can write with a computer (using pinyin), but sometimes they find it hard to write the characters with a pen. Add to this the fact that the relentless push for everyone in China to speak Mandarin and not their local languages is both removing the very reason the characters didn't evolve into phonograms like in the rest of the world and making sure that more and more people know pinyin. The oft-cited argument that Mandarin has too many homophones to be written phonetically is doubly ludicrous: first of all that would make the spoken language impossible and secondly there already is a dialect, the Dungan one, very similar to Standard Mandarin but written phonetically with Cyrillic letters. The argument holds validity for older texts written in Classical Chinese, however. It would be difficult to understand those texts if they were written phonetically, at last with modern Mandarin pronunciation (a bit easier if one used Cantonese). Most Tang dynasty poems are incomprehensible if read aloud to a person who have never seen them written down; they only make sense in written form. All in all, I think it'll take a lot to get rid of the Chinese characters, but there are forces at work today that makes it easier than in the fifties. I doubt it's enough, though, and I don't think they'll disappear anytime soon. However, I also think their difficulty is overrated. It's basically a very irregular spelling system. With English, you have to learn the spelling of each and every word, and the same goes for Mandarin. There's a logic to the characters that's not evident to people who haven't studied them and once you get into it, learning new characters is very simple. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6571 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 135 of 150 29 September 2010 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | ||
Also, I'd like to disagree with the following statement:
… but I don't want to get overly political. I would go as far as to say, however, that many Chinese love their history and culture, but only as far as it doesn't come into conflict with anything practical. Any culture, especially including language, is quickly ignored when it becomes an impediment to economic success. This is true both when it comes to politics and to individuals. I hope I didn't open a can of worms here, but rather contributed to the conversation. If this post starts a huge political discussion, I apologize in advance. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| jasoninchina Senior Member China Joined 5220 days ago 221 posts - 306 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Italian | Message 136 of 150 29 September 2010 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ari, consider the can of worms sufficiently open. he, he. :-)
In all seriousness though, in this discussion(and others on China) you seem to disagree with me when we are in fact saying the same basic thing. We both seem to be saying that China wouldn't give up their characters easily or anytime soon. If you want to add a qualifying statement saying that culture and history take a backseat to practicality and economics, fine. Every country tends to do this to some degree at one time or another. However, I still maintain that China holds their cultural and historical heritage very dearly. Which is why characters won't go away without a fight. That's all I'm saying, my friend. By the way, what part of China do you live in and how do you like it? I live in Hainan and I'm going to venture a guess that it's a whole different brand of Chinese than you have wherever you are. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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