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Russian is past, Chinese is future? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Cthulhu Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7212 days ago 139 posts - 235 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Mandarin, Russian | Message 41 of 150 11 February 2006 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Who said anything about the US/West being evil? I sure didn't.
As for China eventually having to modernize, what exactly is it you think they've been doing? China's economic development has not consisted solely of throwing up factories so that its abundance of cheap labour can continue making things by hand, I can assure you. Putting together modern infrastructure has always been an important part of their economic progress. Yes, labour is cheap in China, but that's not the be-all and end-all of the country; cheap labour attracts capital which is then used to advance the structure of the economy allowing it to remain competitive despite labour costs rising along with the increased prosperity. How do you think developing nations ever becomed developed? Japan had to go through the same rigamarole when it wanted to break into the ranks of modern nations. Maybe this will eventually necessitate the people of China asking for democracy and more freedom, maybe it won't. You seem so sure that it cannot become a superpower without an alternative ideology, but you dismiss its present ideology of liberal-totalitarian government plus free-market economy (Or, more accurately speaking, strict utilitarianism as a political philosophy) out of hand as unviable on the grounds that it's not the same as the American ideology that you say an alternative needs to be provided to for it to become a superpower. You may not like the alternative ideology that China presents (I certainly don't), but it is still an ideology; furthermore, to countries desperately in need of economic progress (Africa, South-east Asia, South America, arguably India and some of the CIS states), this ideology is certainly a viable one, and will keep getting more viable as long as it keeps working for China. It doesn't care much for human rights, and it may be distasteful, but you can hardly just dismiss it as barbarianism and expect it to go away. China's utilitarianism is just as much a viable alternative as the Soviet Union's state-communism ever was, and more effective to boot. With China already being the world's second or third largest economy, second or third largest military power, and largest population, and growing at a rate faster than any part of the French-speaking world, I think it's far more unrealistic to say that Mandarin isn't already more important than French, whose main claim to importance is the fact that it used to be a very critical language of culture and international affairs. Emphasis on "used to be". French's popularity is still based on past importance rather than the present or the future. It's still a beautiful language and all, but calling any language that isn't English more important than Mandarin is pretty iffy. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Skandinav Hexaglot Senior Member Denmark Joined 6876 days ago 139 posts - 145 votes Speaks: Danish*, English, German, Russian, Swedish, Norwegian | Message 42 of 150 11 February 2006 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm not saying China doesn't have vast material ressources, because she clearly has. However, I reacted against, and this has nothing to do with your statements/points of view, the idea that China will become a superpower. In my terminology there has been only two greatpowers in the past 50-60 years: US and USSR. Today there is one superpower/hyperpower/whatever-power. Both Germany and Japan are or at least used to be good examples on economic giants and political dwarfs, but they are not great powers in the sense that they're recognized as such.
Basically, what I'm saying is that in order to change the current world order and establish oneself as a power or pole, one has to offer something that at least some states cannot refuse. USSR offered marxism-leninism, it exercised dominance/hegemony in its sphere of influence, and it was recognized by the community of states as a great power with responsibilities and duties. The same goes for the US. China will need to follow the same path. But it is unrealistically to assume that it alone can balance the US/EU. Regarding Chinese Mandarin it is surely an important language, but it is not more relevant than Russian, French, German and so on; at least not to Westerners. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6932 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 43 of 150 11 February 2006 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
This is a rather bold statement. You are basically saying that Chinese is second in importance after English, and not just in the future, but at the present time. Well, if it's so important, why isn't everybody learning it or planning to? In fact, the study of Chinese as a second languge is growing, but so far mostly in Asia. So, your statment only applies regionally. In other regions other languages are seen as more important. Americans are most interested in Spanish, followed probably by French. Most Europeans, when they are not learning English, are learning additional European languages. So, to say that no language besides English is more important than Chinese is simply not true in many parts of the world, at least at the moment. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cthulhu Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7212 days ago 139 posts - 235 votes Speaks: French*, English, Mandarin, Russian | Message 44 of 150 11 February 2006 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
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"Well, if it's so important, why isn't everybody learning it or planning to?"
1) It takes time for things to change; 25 years ago there were next to no opportunities to study Chinese in schools and universities in the West, 15 years ago was hardly better. This has been changing, but the educational systems as well as society at large are still massively geared towards the traditionally taught languages (French, Spanish, German, Latin, etc). 2) The language's reputation for difficulty. 3) Not everyone is aware of the factors making Chinese so important. A language's popularity and its importance aren't always proportionate, and obviously not everyone picks the languages they want to study based on their importance on the world stage. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7004 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 45 of 150 11 February 2006 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
I would imagine that the reason for this is that in Europe, for example, there are more chances to use French, German, Spanish, etc. than Chinese. Edited by patuco on 11 February 2006 at 7:07pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cthulhu Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7212 days ago 139 posts - 235 votes Speaks: French*, English, Mandarin, Russian | Message 46 of 150 11 February 2006 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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^That's certainly a contributing factor, but I still suspect it has at least as much to do with tradition as anything else...You get the exact same situation in North America, but without the excuse that there are more chances to use them.
3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6932 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 47 of 150 11 February 2006 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
Most people are well aware of China's economic growth. However, that does not yet in itself make the language itself important to a lot of people. Until China becomes a leading innovator in science, technology and culture, and not just a manufacturing powerhouse, the Chinese language will likely remain fairly low in priority for the Europeans or the Americans. I probably risk sounding unintentionally disrespectful in saying this, but not that many of us are in the import-export business.
Well, North Americans have more than just an excuse with Spanish, at least those of us who live in the US. Tradition does contribute, of course - those that belong to the Western civilization are naturally attracted to its main languages. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cthulhu Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7212 days ago 139 posts - 235 votes Speaks: French*, English, Mandarin, Russian | Message 48 of 150 11 February 2006 at 11:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
Not that natural; there is after all an entire planet out there. Why limit oneself to a half dozen differant types of bread when there's so much food out there? I don't belong to the Western civilization, it belongs to me. Of course, some people like bread, are connoisseurs for it, and there's nothing wrong with that either.
How much do you know about China's pioneering work in computer engineering? Genetic research? Medical science? Zilch? There is an almost embarassingly large amount of it. Do they have to outstrip *everybody* including the US before their accomplishments are recognized? In two years China will putting a solar space telescope into orbit, the most powerful of it's kind, their own design. And innovative culture? Please, they have it in spades, three millenia worth, although why it has to be innovative for the West to take notice when China's already got more culture built up than a human being could experience in a lifetime that we just ignore anyway is quite frankly beyond me. But people don't know/care about these things because everyone knows that China's just a big red factory that provides us with cheap goods and a quaint vacation stop :p Alright, let me put it another way; on a global scale, English is unquestionably the most important language, in an absolute sense, not just to a particular region or group. Its popularity grew/grows primarily from its importance, it's not important on account of its popularity. If Mandarin isn't number 2 on the same scale, what is? Spanish with half the speakers and a smaller total economy (By purchasing power parity of course)? French with a quarter of the speakers but a culture much more universally admired if no more admirable? Besides popularity (Which can grow many sources besides importance), what kind of criterion for judging the importance of a language could you use that wouldn't put Mandarin immediately behind English? Edited by Cthulhu on 11 February 2006 at 11:18pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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