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Gary’s TAC 2013 - PAX | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 153 of 160 15 November 2013 at 10:55am | IP Logged | ||
Yeah, even something like a sarcastic "che simpatica!" might have saved me a little dignity; I suppose I was just caught by surprise since everyone else there had been quite friendly, so I didn't really know how to react and I did so in the worst possible way, getting upset and defensive. Things like that, although normally less extreme, happen to me enough that I should be able to deal with them by now! I seem to have had a lot of bad luck with native speakers so I often wonder if the problem is me rather than them. With the French in particular, it seems like I'm just not culturally compatible with most of them and all the social and conversational skills I've learnt up to now that are useful with most people simply don't work with them. While with Italians, it generally just takes a bit of time or social proof for them to "trust" me and want to talk to me. But I have also met some great ones, and I suppose it's too easy to focus on the negative over the positive. I finished another Italian book, L'estate che non avrei mai immaginato. It was pretty bad, but it only cost me £0.70 and it was a very easy read. It's written in a very conversational tone, and I could often get through four or five pages before coming across an unknown word, so in terms of input it was good. The plot is a bit ridiculous, it basically reads like a list of a teenage boy's fantasies, but at times it gets so bad that it's good. After that I feel the need to read something of some sort of literary merit, so I'm finally starting on La coscienza di Zeno. Since coming back from holiday I've just been feeling even more tired and ill, but I forced myself out to a Couchsurfing meeting here. I met an Italian and a French person, and no prizes for guessing which one was happy to speak to me and which one responded to everything I said in monosyllables and looked for an excuse to leave. Also lots and lots of Spanish people. I just need to get through these last few lessons of Grammaire Progressive then I'm done with this language and I'm starting the one I should have started four years ago. Edited by garyb on 15 November 2013 at 11:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 154 of 160 18 November 2013 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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I went to the University language exchange for the first time in a while, and not only were there a few French people there, but most of them were nice! I continue to be surprised at how much these sorts of events can change from one period to another.
So I had my first proper long French conversation in about a month, and it went pretty well, although there were some points where I got a bit lost or messed up pronunciation and had to remind myself to slow down. It's reassuring that after leaving it for so much time, most of my ability is still there. And after so much Italian focus, it was a nice reminder that my French is still a hell of a lot better and it's still the only foreign language in which I can realistically keep up with a group of native speakers for a reasonable period. At one point we were discussing experiences in foreign countries, and people were saying that the Scots are polite and helpful but socially very closed and difficult to make friends with. Which is my exact experience with the French. Maybe we have more in common than I thought... I suppose that experience gave me the motivation I was needing to keep pushing on with French. Despite what I might have implied in my last post, my plan is still to just de-prioritise French as opposed to stopping completely. I think the best thing to do from now on is to just "go with the flow": take speaking opportunities as they come and study it more or less depending on what seems appropriate at the time, rather than getting stressed out about concrete goals and finding people to speak to. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 155 of 160 25 November 2013 at 11:55am | IP Logged | ||
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I've still not been feeling great so I haven't been doing a whole lot of socialising and practising. I made it to a couple of meetups but I didn't have much energy. A French guy at one of them said he'd be willing to do a language exchange with me, and claimed to be reliable and enthusiastic. But I don't want to speak too soon!
Other than that, some stuff I've been watching and reading recently: Films De l'autre côté du périph - watched half so far, it's a fun action movie. 93, Rue Lauriston - well-done drama about the French Gestapo and the occupation. Buongiorno notte - another good film based on post-war Italian history and politics. Still trying to find some decent Italian TV. Striscia la notizia is a decent news/satire show, probably the closest thing I've found so far to my old favourite Petit journal. It's watchable online, although as segments of a few minutes as opposed to full episodes. I often watch a couple of segments during my lunch hour. I attempted Un posto al sole but I just couldn't get into it and I cared so little about the characters and the storyline that I just couldn't stay focused; I looked up a few other soap/telenovela type programmes that sounded like they might have potential but couldn't find any way to watch episodes. I tried Uomini e donne which sounded like it could be a laugh and has full episodes available online; it's a bit stupid but it has some funny arguments and some good Roman accents. Books I must be about a third of the way through La coscienza di Zeno now. It's a fun and quite easy read once you get used to the slightly old-fashioned language. It's quite long but I'm certainly enjoying it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 156 of 160 29 November 2013 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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I went to the language café this week, and quite a few people were there for French - it seems to be getting popular again. There were probably even more people at the French table than the Spanish one, which is unusual but cool. Mostly learners of course but there were two French people and I had a good chat with both and exchanged numbers with one of them. In the last few weeks I've met several friendly French people, straight after I decided I had had enough of French... maybe there's some truth to the strange saying that the more you seek the less you find.
One of the French people thought my accent sounded like one from the Alps. I must be getting closer - that's the first time someone's said somewhere in France as opposed to a different French-speaking country. A couple of days ago I met up with an Italian friend who I hadn't seen for a long time. I was tired, to the point where I was thinking that Italian was too much effort and I'd happily just speak English - very unlike me! But once we got going I was speaking pretty well, definitely better than usual. Even compared to when I was in Italy, it seemed to just be flowing more smoothly and coming more naturally, and I was making fewer verb and pronunciation mistakes, although by no means none! We talked about quite a variety of subjects and I didn't struggle too much, although at times I had to work round vocabulary gaps and I wasn't explaining myself in the best way possible. I'm not sure how to explain the big improvement; the only difference to my studying recently is that I've been reading a lot more, so perhaps that's helping, but it might well just be other factors like my health starting to improve again, my subconscious mind having processed more of my linguistic experiences in Italy, or simply a peak in the usual ups and downs. I remember seeing a similar increase in ability in the weeks following my trip to France last year, but sadly it was more of a short-lasting spike than a permanent boost. Still I'm feeling optimistic, even if it's just a taste of how my ability might consistently be in a bit of time. Spanish is going to happen. I'm off work from the 18th until the New Year, during which time I plan to learn the basics. I plan to get hold of Michel Thomas and probably buy myself an early Christmas present of Assimil's "Lo Spagnolo" - learning it through Italian seems like the best way to go. I'm still not sure how I'm going to find time to work on three languages since I currently barely have the time for two, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I imagine I'll end up spending sometimes more and sometimes less time on each one depending on motivation, speaking opportunities, travel plans, and other factors. Edited by garyb on 29 November 2013 at 5:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 157 of 160 04 December 2013 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've ordered my copy of Lo Spagnolo now - shit just got real. Only two weeks until I plan to start learning it.
My "ideal" language learning philosophy is to get very good at one before starting another, especially if they're closely related. I felt that I started Italian too early, and I think that if I really wanted to do things the best way possible and reach all my goals as quickly as I could, I'd delay Spanish for the time being and focus on Italian. But as usual, real life gets in the way of ideals. I've been dying to learn Spanish for years now, and at this stage it's very much become low-hanging fruit: even just spending a few weeks learning the basics would give a huge boost to my social and travel possibilities. To be honest I thought I'd be at a higher level in Italian than I am now, but that's because I learnt the basics really quickly and assumed that I'd continue at that rate. In reality my learning slowed down to a more "normal" pace once I got to around B1. Partly due to difficulty finding speaking opportunities but really it was mostly just because there was still a hell of a lot to learn, even after the similarities. For Spanish I can probably expect much the same. It's easy to think that since I know French and Italian so I could get fluent in Spanish in a few months or a year, but that's probably just falling into the same trap that caused me to underestimate Italian. But then again, I'm still optimistic. I'd estimate that learning Italian took perhaps half the time it would have if I hadn't known French, so there will probably be an even bigger "discount" on Spanish. Plus there's the speaking opportunities. In my city you could easily speak Spanish every day if you wanted, and the Spanish tend to be very socially open, fun, and easy to make friends with. So maybe being at least somewhat fluent by the end of next year isn't entirely unrealistic. But enough hypothesising, we'll see how it goes. I'm still thinking about travel plans for next year. Currently they are looking like: Hungary and Czech Republic for a week with family: definite. No linguistic intentions beyond learning a few basic words/phrases. Barcelona in December to play at a music festival: pretty certain. Italy for a week, probably around May: very possible, but need to coordinate with friends. France: maybe. I could probably stay with my friend in Paris, and the Hellfest festival line-up is as usual difficult to say no to, so if a lot of friends are going then I might end up there yet again. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 158 of 160 06 December 2013 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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Back to the present - not much more point in speculating on the future, I've no idea how next year will go. I'm feeling extremely out of practice in French recently, which is no big surprise since recently I've been working on something like 80% Italian and 20% French for a few months. So I'll try to do a bit of writing...
Lundi soir je suis allé au Café malgré ma fatigue, et j'ai bien fait : j'ai parlé pas mal de français, surtout avec d'autres qui apprennent la langue mais il y avait aussi deux Français qui m'ont paru sympathiques. Et hier j'ai enfin réussi à rencontrer le Français dont j'ai parlé, celui qui s'était dit fiable et disposé à faire des échanges. Ça s'est bien passé, on a discuté de divers sujets et il m'a posé des questions qui m'ont fait penser, c'était en gros une discussion beaucoup plus approfondie et donc stimulante par rapport au "papotage" normal des Meetups. On a maintenant l'intention de se retrouver régulièrement et de discuter dans les détails des sujets particuliers. Peut-être que c'est enfin l'occasion qu'il me fallait de combler des lacunes dans mes connaissances et d'avoir des conversations qui me feront améliorer plutôt que d'avoir toujours les mêmes conversations et d'entendre toujours les mêmes fautes aux Meetups ( si j'entends encore une fois "demander une question" ou "le gouverment" ou "il parle arabique" ou "mon première fois"... ). Mais il ne faut pas parler trop vite, et j'attends quelques semaines de voir si ça marche comme prévu ou bien si ça fini comme tous les autres beaux propos jamais réalisés de faire des échanges. Comme la lecture me semble beaucoup aider en italien, il serait temps que je recommence à lire en français aussi : lire quelques articles çà et là sur internet comme je le fais, c'est déjà quelque chose, mais rien ne remplace du temps passé à lire un bon livre et à laisser la langue s'infiltrer... Ça fait des années que j'ai l'intention de lire La peste et il y a d'autres livres "classiques" qui m'intéressent. En plus, avec ces livres français et italiens j'aurai quelque chose à faire quand je passerai quelques jours chez ma famille à Noël où il n'y a pas grand chose à faire. Edited by garyb on 06 December 2013 at 2:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 159 of 160 11 December 2013 at 11:39am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm still quite exhausted. I had a one and a half hour Italian conversation on Skype yesterday evening and my Italian was a bit of a disaster: struggling to find words, mispronouncing things, and loads of basic mistakes. All the things that I thought I had improved a lot on over the last year. It was making me question my decision to start yet another language in a week, but tiredness really was the main factor so it would be stupid to judge based on that. Even speaking English has been difficult recently. I was explaining things to my boss the other day and I was saying words in the wrong order and all sorts.
Despite all that though, I thought that my accent was better than usual, and the few times when I didn't have to search for words, it all came out quite fluently. It's the opposite of what I would have expected, considering that recently I've done lots of reading and writing and not much listening and speaking. I'm doing a French exchange tonight so I hope that goes a bit better. I think my main focus for my time off work is just going to be relaxing and catching up on sleep. I'm sure I'll get a decent amount of studying in too, but really I just need a break. The usual watching/reading update: Books: La coscienza di Zeno: about 55% through now. Still not too difficult and I'm enjoying it a lot. Some of Zeno's awkward situations and constantly changing thoughts and feelings are a bit too easy to identify with. La peste: started it a few days ago and I'm breezing through it, it's an easy read. I think I'm around 20% through, so it's not long either, and the chapters are fairly short. Films: Populaire: enjoyable enough and not too difficult. Romanzo criminale: takes a bit of attention and focus to understand everything. I don't think it's suited to my usual style of watching in chunks, so I need to find some time to sit down and watch it all at once. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 160 of 160 17 December 2013 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think it's time for my usual slightly premature end-of-year wrap-up. As well as obviously starting Spanish very shortly, I've been having more crazy accent improvement ideas that I'm keen to experiment with, so it's an appropriate time to start the 2014 log.
So a brief reflection on my goals and progress over the year: Italian I feel like I improved quite steadily, although perhaps not as quickly as I had hoped. At the start of the year I thought I was "high B1", and was hoping to reach B2 and "be able to express myself relatively well on most subjects". Of course, after B1 is when progress becomes much less linear; I'd say that that statement is perhaps accurate on a good day but overall I'm not quite there. I'm maybe a low and not very solid B2 by now. Like I say I think I progressed well, which is especially due to making friends with some Italian people; I just, as always, overestimated what I could do in one year. I planned to finish the Super Challenge (100 films and conversation hours) and travel in Italy for a couple of weeks, and I did both. French My aim was mostly just to keep it up, get closer to C1, and keep trying to find people to speak it with. I definitely made some improvements and saw a few big jumps in my ability, but C1 is still a long way off, and I've accepted that it probably always will be unless I move to a French speaking country or make friends with French people, neither of which seem likely, and even at that it would still be a ton of work. So I've quite sensibly, if reluctantly, decided to settle for less. But I still think that a certain amount of improvement in spoken fluency and accent is a realistic possibility. Finding native speakers to practise French with is still a huge difficulty, and I almost decided to give up because of it, but in recent weeks I've found a few opportunities. Pronunciation and accent work That's been a focus over the year, and I'm still far from having a good accent in either language. All the things I've discovered so far (phonetics study, shadowing, listening/repeating, the chorusing method I've written about, Luca's phonetic analysis, etc.) have helped, but they seem to all just be small pieces of a much bigger puzzle. So I hope to keep discovering and putting together more of these pieces! Spanish I said I'd start Spanish if I reached a satisfactory level in Italian and Spanish. I didn't so I didn't. I still don't think I'm really ready for it (see what I wrote a few posts ago about my "ideal philosophy"), but I'm going for it next year anyway - I've waited long enough! 2014 log coming soon. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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