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PMs TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission | ||
Tags: TellMeMore | Fluenz | Linguaphone | Flash cards | Michel Thomas | Self-Study | Spaced Repetition (SRS) | Diploma/Certificate | Study Plan | Fluency | Dutch | Pimsleur | FSI | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | Assimil | French | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5479 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 329 of 451 26 March 2015 at 1:47am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Très approprié monsieur :) Permettez-moi de me présenter... Je m'appelle Monsieur Molembourg, Monsieur Piteor Molembourg plus exactement, om precies te zijn. Vous n'êtes pas par chance Monsieur Jeffoer où quoi? Je sais que tu es vraiment en fait un vrai hippocampe. Je le dirai à tous les gens que je verrai aujourd'hui, avec mes yeux propres- dans la mer bien-sûr ! Edited by PeterMollenburg on 26 March 2015 at 1:48am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 330 of 451 26 March 2015 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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So, i've just caught up with your heavily informative log. A few things that came to my mind:
1.your new routine sounds really awesome theoretically but you might want to give yourself some more wiggle room to just do whatever you feel like at the moment. Despite good intentions, PM is not a robot and shouldn't treat himself like one :-) 1.1: what is Fluenz like? i consider putting some money aside and saving for it when i'll have time for a more difficult language as it looks like a very good course frm the demo and presentation. Would you shar your experience? 2.b2 exam is a nice goal, i wish you lots of energy to keep going all the way. Despite all those cons, i think it is worth taking. And there are no bad reasons to do so. The discussion reminded me of a friend who wanted to take a dalf C1 and got talked out of it by the institution's employee asking things like "why do you take it if you dont need it? It is not worth it, dont do it. It's too much work. Why do you want to pay the money for something you dont necessarily need for job?" For quite a long time. So, do it even if your only reason is "because I want to". After all, it's better to spend the money on such a goal than to "invest" it in cigarettes, isn't it? :-) 3. The fact B2-C2 path took me 5 years doesn't mean it will to anyone else. I think someone more dedicated with less breaks (and focusing just on French) could do it in 3 years or so. Or someone without pressure could take more years but still get there. I think it might be better to focus on shorter term goals that lead to the big one than to take 5 years or whatever as a fix date. 4. Whether you take another language aside of French or not is a decision where both options hold some pros and cons. I'd just advise you to take the decision soon, whichever one it is, as time spent on self defence against the Dutch temptation and convincing yourself to resist, that is time wasted, in my honest opinion. If you need Dutch and can use French resources, I don't think it would be such a desaster for your French studies. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5479 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 331 of 451 26 March 2015 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Very true indeed. Holes are already appearing and I haven't even started... probably because like you said I'm not a robot. I should stop posting my routines on my log and stick to summarizing my activities after I've done them as each month passes because I keep changing them not long after I declare them the next best thing since sliced bread. Perhaps you are right- just do what I feel like in the end. Thanks Cavesa :) Btw up until recently I don't know why but I assumed you were male. It must be my default setting for HTLAL. I think I assume everyone is male on here until i'm proved otherwise- and the way I don't notice very obvious facts doesn't help. Maybe I have asperges- my mastered skill being how to develop plans while ignoring everything else (but never stick to the plans).
I'm not sure you've followed me exactly, or perhaps I have confused ppl a little. I have every intention of doing the B2 exam. While discussing Jeffers possibility of doing a B1 exam due to his hesitation I was attempting to provide a balanced argument as to why he should or shouldn't do the exam. Thus I provided some positives as well as playing the devil's advocate and provide some negatives- not that I necessarily agree with them (for the most part I don't). However I've come to realise that many things in life aren't what they seem, so it's good to keep an open mind on anything- there are always 2 sides to everything. However I'm certainly keen on sitting the B2 exam and C1 and C2 eventually. I'll be sitting further exams in other languages too. This is a good thing to keep me motivated and moving forward. Thanks for your support tho Cavesa :) I appreciate it.
All useful comments. Thank you. Although I do have a question- How many hours a day did you average of French study/exposure over those 5 years? (I know I know, focus on the B2, or even focus on today)
I don't see it as time wasted as they are simply thoughts/wishes that enter my mind from time to time. I don't stop learning French because I'm thinking about learning Dutch or Spanish. Likewise I don't stop learning French because I'm thinking of what's for dinner tonight. Sorry if that sounds a bit blunt, I don't mean it that way, but I don't think flirting with the idea of doing other languages is doing any harm, and I don't think I need to make the decision sooner. I think I'm best in fact to proceed for a bit longer yet with French only all the while other languages keep tempting me. Perhaps tho, and rightly so, you're just tired of me talking about it (a bit like my rediculous plans, and how I go on and on about flashcards) I mean this all in good humour- I'm a bit of twitt to say the least. As long as I keep learning :) Reveiw of Fluenz (French) to follow... Edited by PeterMollenburg on 26 March 2015 at 11:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 332 of 451 27 March 2015 at 12:19am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Why does everyone assume im male? :-D really, guys, there are girls on the internet as well!
That plan making used to be a trouble of mine as well. Nowadays, i prefer not to make many and i still have trouble sticking to those few i make. I wish i could answer your questionon the average time spent on French daily over the five years but i simply cannot. There were months with no french at all. Basically the first year was nearly without any french, i was prtty rusty when i found htlal. There were days with five or six episodes of a tv show in a row as the other extreme. It is just impossible to tell. If I really counted an average, I suppose it might be as laughable as ten minutes or less :-) that is why I believe you can get to the same goal much faster, if you are less lazy than me I meant no offence, of course you do not stop french for thoughs about Spanish (heh, i overlooked a red light and almost walked under a car while thinking of Spanish last week). But i think you might simply jump into dutch and study instead of consideing it, you might already be pretty far on the road. :-P i am not tired of it but you just keep making me consider my own plans, which i try to avoid :-D and now i cannot and im thinking about those again! Im looking forward to the fluenz review! 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5479 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 333 of 451 27 March 2015 at 1:11am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Fluenz French review (experience drawn from levels 1-3)
Okay so generally I really like Fluenz. My experience is only with Fluenz French (no other languages). I have used Tell me More Nederlands (toyed with many levels) and Tell me More French (only very early levels), and so far I'd use Fluenz French any day over Tell me More. Tell me more is too fiddly and cumbersome. Rosetta Stone for me personally, is almost rubbish. The price is rediculous and it's in no way a style of learning that I like- Rosetta Stone is like an expensive flashcard deck (okay so I have been known to use the odd flashcard or two) that can't do as much as Anki or other similar flashcard systems. Okay so I am biased due to my personal learning style, or just simply how I feel about the programs. I mention the other programs to have something to compare to from the perspective of how I feel about them as an individual. Fluenz is not really extremely advanced. I have completed levels 1 and 2 and nearing the end of 3. There are 30 lessons in each level, i'm to lesson 26 of level 3. I think this is a review lesson every 10 lessons or so- new material focusing on content covered up to that point. I have all 5 levels. But on level 3 it's not overly advanced, but still useful for the intermediate student for sure. It's particularly good for those that like drills. Although it's not as dry as FSI perhaps simply mainly because you have a screen in front of you. They are not substitution style drills- will discuss more below. During level 1 (Fluenz French 1) I despised the 'tutor's' accent. How can they use someone without excellent and consistent pronunciation of nasal vowels? That almost infuriates me. The tutor on levels 2 and 3 is a native French speaker and so the problem is resolved. Back on level 1 the vast majority of audio is performed by recorded native French speakers from France, but the grammar and new vocab explanations are carried out by the tutor with an accent I didn't appreciate. My accent is far superior to hers and she is the main tutor for Fluenz French 1. Okay so maybe they are trying to show you that not everyone's perfect at that level, but I disagree if that's their logic, as such pronunciation can confuse learners or cause shoddy pronunciation of those who mimmick such things. That's my main issue with the program, but in the context of the whole program it is in the end a forgiveable issue that still puts this program far ahead of the others i have used. By focusing on the native speakers pronunciation in Level 1 you can get around the issue. Each lesson breakdown follows the same format, so I wouldn't recommend using ONLY this program as you might start to feel like a broken record. The format is good, but not something you can do for hours on end every single day, unless you truly are a robot. Then again most programs can't be done for hours on end every day, as we all need a break or a change. Lesson breakdown (Lesson 25, Level 3 as an example): 1. Introduction. (this one is just under a minute long, like most). The tutor speaks to you and tells you what's ahead for the lesson- where the conversation will take place and what it's about in summary. In this case it's at a 'laverie'. She discusses what will be covered in terms of vocab and grammar. In this case she says some new terms around the laverie will be introduced and there will be some focus on 'y' and 'en'. These pronouns had been introduced in Level 2 but here they expand on it a little. 2. The conversation Here is the conversation from lesson 25, level 3: Bonjour, je voudrais laver des vêtements, mais je ne sais pas où il y a une laverie. - il y a une laverie en bas de la rue, à côté de la pharmacie. Mais si vous voulez, vous pouvez me donner vos vêtements et j'y vais pour vous. - Merci. Alors voilà, cette veste a besoin d'un nettoyage à sec. Et ces jupes sont à repasser. Les chemises et les pantalons sont à laver. Quand est-ce qu'il vont être prêts ? - Normalement demain. - Très bien, merci. Bonne journée ! - Bonne journée ! As you can see the conversation is not terribly complex. The longer portions of speech are broken down. You proceed through the conversation by clicking to play the next sentence/segment. You see the characters- a photo of each one pops up as their portion of the dialogue is spoken when you click the button. There are fairly consistent central characters along with random new characters introduced like the lady who will be taking the clothes to the laverie. Although central characters continue through the course it doesn't give the feel of a continuing story. It's certainly a gradual build up in terms of grammar and vocab and themes, but it doesn't feel like an ongoing story like French in Action in which the story feels more ongoing with each lesson. Here each lesson although somewhat linked feels like a separate thing altogether in terms of the conversational theme and what takes place. You can play the conversation as many times as you like with English or French subtitles, both sets of subtitles, or none. 3. Grammatical and Vocabuarly breakdown (10-15min perhaps) Here the tutor breaks down each sentence of the conversation, as she does so the words appear on the screen in front of her for you to look at while she discussing some slightly more detailed grammar points or vocab. This can seem over simplified at times but if you're new to the material being covered it is rather useful. If not you will find it drags somewhat. So the pace is probably right for someone who is new to the content and hasn't covered it elsewhere in another course for example. 4. Repeat the words A short segment of the program in which you click on words, hear them spoken aloud, and then repeat (if you wish to repeat them). Pretty simplistic but allows you to focus on words or phrases. Material is drawn from the current lesson with some variations and some varied words or phrases from earlier lessons. In this lesson there are 25 of these words/phrases. Examples from the lesson being discussed are as follows: se laver repasser la chemise la jupe est à repasser ce chapeau est à laver bonn journée ! dix euros la journée rapidement normalement en bas de la rue elle y vit 5. Match the phrases In this segment you match 5 sentences. They are not spoken aloud. You have a list of 5 French sentences on the left and 5 English sentences on the right. They are out of order. You drag the sentence that matches from the French list on the left and drop it onto the matching English sentence on the right. example from L25,L3: French list (on left hand side of screen): * Les ascenseurs sont au fond du couloir * Sonia est allée au bar près de la place * il y a une laverie en haut de la rue * il y a quelqu'un dans la salle? * Ta voiture est à côté de la banque? English list (on right hand side of screen): * Is there somebody in the room? * The elevators are at the end of the corridor * Is your(i) car next to the bank? * Sonia went to the bar close to the plaza * There's a laundromat up the street I think there are 4 lots of such matching exercices in this lesson which is pretty standard (ie 4 lots of 5- the above being one 'lot') 6. Choose the best image Here you are presented with 4 images on the screen and one word. You simply click on the image that matches the word. No spoken words here either, just some soft background music. The images are very high quality (meaning really nicely photographed). The exercise is very easy- the easiest segment from the program. eg the first one the word is "un pantalon" the images are: a pile of jeans- about half a dozen pairs, a shirt, a whole lot of jackets hanging up, and 1 pair of jeans. There are about 20 of these image choose the best image questions. 7. Write the words you read You see words in English, you have to write the translation in French eg The skirt (you type: la jupe) to wash (= laver) to bathe (= se laver) The skirt is for ironing (= le jupe est à repasser) This hat is for washing (= ce chapeau est à laver) The dry-cleaning (=le netoyyage à sec) It's ready (= c'est prêt) Have a nice evening! (= bonne soirée) 10 euros a day (=dix euros la journée) Turn left (= tournez à gauche) At the intersection (= à l'intersection) I'm going there (= j'y vais) There is roughly around 30 or more of these to do. You can click 'answer' in many of the segments such as this one if you can't work out the answer 8. Write the phrase you read (no voice audio) A more complex version of the above segment in which you type out in French the translation of the English that appears on screen. Theres around 20 of these translation exercises, maybe slightly more. examples from L25,L3 of English sentences to type out in French: * We're buying a computer (type the answer in French) * He bought a new white shirt * Where can I buy new pants around here? * They bought a few new clothes at the market next to the bank * He washes * He bathes every day * She washes her clothes quickly * We still have to wash a lot of clothes before dinner * He washed his red clothes and his white clothes together * A place * I like this place, it's hot (there) * I like the United States, I travel (there) each year * I go to this market a lot, I always find (there) what I'm looking for etc 9. like segment 4 repeat the words except you only hear a word or (simple) phrase (you don't see it) and you must type the answer. These are words or short phrases you've already dealt with so far in this lesson. Perhaps there are 20-30 of these in this lesson [I'm not going to count them all :)] eg la jupe c'est prêt ce chapeau est à laver dix euros la journée à ce soir 10. Write the phrase you hear. Here you hear a phrase in French and you type it out in French. There will be 5 progressively harder phrases in each 'lot'. Of which there are around 4 lots I believe. An example: 1st lot/round: * Nous achetons * on achète un nouvel ordinateur * il a acheté une nouvelle chemise blanche * Où je peux acheter un nouveau pantalon par ici ? * Elles ont acheté quelques nouveaux vêtements au marché à côté de la banque 2nd lot: * il lave * il se lave tous les jours * Elle lave ses vêtements rapidement * Nous devons encore laver beaucoup de vêtements avant le dîner * il a lavé ses vêtements rouges et ses vêtements blancs ensemble 11. Voice recording of the conversational segments Here you listen to each segment of the original conversation, then record your own voice saying the same thing and listen to it as much as you like to improve your pronunciation of the same conversational segments. 12. Role playing of the conversation Here like segment 11 you use the microphone. It's the original conversation again, but this time you play the role of one of the people and say all of his/her lines as they appear on screen. Basically you speak your lines and hear the lines of the other person so that it flows like the original conversation except you are now one of the characters. You can play the full recording back after completing it or listen to the original recording in full if you prefer. 13. Type the conversation Here you will hear (not see) the original conversation and you type it out. eg you hear: "Bonjour, je voudrais laver des vêtements, mais je ne sais pas où il y a une laverie". You type this out. Then you move to the next part of the conversation doing the same thing. 14.Match the phrases (2) The same as segment 5 discussed above with different phrases 15. Repeat the phrases Here you have a list of 5 sentences per round/lot (4 rounds in total = 20 sentences) that you click to hear spoken by a native speaker and you basically do your best to imitate each one and move on when you're ready to the next one. There's not right or wrong way to proceed here. I personally find this segment one of the best if not the best in the program. I drill it hardcore until I can say every sentence exactly the same in pronunciation and intonation as those spoken in the program without reading off the screen but by listening and repeating- only reading for reference occasionally until I can do so without reading but by listening and repeating only. Of course you can do this however you like, but the idea I guess is to imitate as best you can to improve pronunciation, speed, intonation etc. examples: * Vous utilisez l'ascenseur pour monter chez vous normalement ? * La laverie ne ferme pas avant huit heures normalement * il a seulement choisi une entrée et un plat principal ? * Je voudrais un verre de ce vin et un jus d'orange pour elle * Ses parents sont allés à ce marché pour acheter deux vélos 16. A recap with the tutor (some encouragement, tips, clarifications perhaps, around a minute long) Edit: Final thoughts A really good course for 'drilling'. A much more useful course than other French CD/DVD-rom programs I"ve previously used. Not overly advanced at level 3 but still 2 more levels to go. A pleasant experience, plenty of drills, a good opportunity to hear your own spoken French compared with the native speakers' French, and some good photographs for nice presentation. Against other more traditional courses I'd give Fluenz a 7 out of ten :) For comparison I'd give Assimil New French with Ease perhaps and French in Action 9.5 out of 10, Tell me More 4.5 out of ten and Rosetta Stone 2/10 Edited by PeterMollenburg on 27 March 2015 at 1:21am 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5479 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 334 of 451 27 March 2015 at 1:29am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Like 2 in total right? ;)
I'm beginning to accept i'm just going to continually modifying my plan and that as long as I keep learning that's the main thing
Well that's useful to know. Even if i'm overly generous and say you did an hour a day. Then I should expect to get there quicker if I don't get too lazy. Although my over abundance of courses won't help, so if I do a couple hours a day I might get there in a few years... who knows, but thanks for sharing and helping me remain positive by knowing this goal is achievable.
It's all good, we're just generally sharing here and no problemo's. Glad to hear you didn't walk under the car- you must not be very tall ;) Who knows what the future holds for plans, studies, which languages and whatever, I'm just glad you've shared your experiences and advice Cavesa. Thank you. Let's just endeavour to keep moving forward and not being lazy :) Hope you enjoy the review of Vrijdag's French Fries Strikes Back Part Seven point two Revamped (extended Arabic version) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5479 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 335 of 451 07 April 2015 at 4:46am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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March summary
58hrs 14min total learning time 1hr 52min/day average 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7208 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 336 of 451 07 April 2015 at 9:55am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Viva la PM!
I'm glad you are doing well Peter. Keep up the good work. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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