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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5419 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 25 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
This is the whole point. The whole debate on the critical period hypothesis centers specifically on the acquisition of phonology. To say that the fact that foreign adult learners still have an accent is akin to native speakers having an accent is totally wrong. We may remark a strong regional accent in our own languages and even prefer a cute foreign accent but the basic observation remains, very few foreign adult learners acquire native pronunciation, whatever the accent. I really don't see what the debate is about. Nobody is saying that adults can't learn foreign languages. Most people simply say that it is easier to learn a foreign language as a child than as an adult. Now, if we look at the particular case of foreign students that, according, to emk become highly proficient in English after, let's say 5 years at the local research university. Is this surprising? They are immersed in sophisticated English for academic purposes. They read extensively. They have a lot of interaction with native speakers; some probably date and even marry natives. They are highly motivated to perfect their English. They are intelligent and relatively young. Many of them take English classes Aren't these the best conditions for learning a language at an adult age? How many develop a native-like accent after 5 years? Few it seems. This might not be important but the fact remains that they will probably have an accent for the rest of their lives. At the same time, it is very likely that in that same university there are other kinds of immigrants, probably from Latin America, doing the more menial tasks such as housekeeping and working in the cafeteria. What is their English like after 5 years? Without going into details, I think we can safely assume that their English will not be on par with the English of those foreign graduate students. Their accent will be thicker than that of the foreign students. I don't know where this idea that adults can't learn languages comes from. Certainly not from me. I don't even believe in the critical period hypothesis. But I believe, like most parents and all systems of education in this world that it is best to be exposed to a foreign language earlier than later. Given the choice of when their children should learn a language, are there parents who say, "I think later is better; my child will learn better as an adult."? I don't want to use my own observations as the sole scientific standard but all the perfectly bilingual or multilingual people I have ever met learned their languages at a young age, whether it's from a bilingual home or schooling, day care, summer camps in the target language. We don't have to look far. Here at HTLAL many people are exposed to English very young for well-known reasons. All the polyglots started out young. To me there is no doubt, the earlier the better. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4611 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 26 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I know a few people who were raised in communist East Germany and were certainly not able to speak
English as children or teenagers. Yet they came to Britain as young adults and now speak English to near native levels. They arrived in a society where everything is conducted in English and almost nobody had the inclination or ability to speak German with them. Result - they became fluent English speakers by virtue of good old-fashioned cold immersion. Works a treat every time. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4522 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 27 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
But what is the real evidence for this? The original study by Johnson and Newport (1989), which was popularized in Pinker's book, looked at the language acquisition of 46 Asians who arrived at differing ages in the USA. Their finding was that only those that arrived before the age of 8 performed in language tests at native level, and there was a monotonic decline in their language performance the older they were (up to 17-years-old) when they arrived. However, a quick search finds lots of non-replications. For instance:
If we want to talk about the data for a critical period we should look at all the data, not the first study, and ignore the non-replications that follow. That's not how science works. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5419 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 28 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Isn't this what I've been saying? Start young, at least relatively, in complete immersion and, I surmise, strong motivation and plenty of interaction with natives. It will work. At the same time, how many HTLALers can claim to have learned to speak like like a native at an adult age? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4611 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 29 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
But most Mexican immigrants will live (and often work) in a Spanish-speaking enclave within the USA and will learn enough English to "survive" (no easy task in itself. How many Americans could do he same south of the border?) Drop a Latino person (hope this term is acceptable) into an area where they are the only Spanish speaker for 500 miles (ok, an exaggeration, but you get my drift) and you can bet your bottom dollar that their English will come on by leaps and bounds. What other choice would they have? Spend the rest of their lives being ignored? Would such a person speak English infused with academic terms? Probably not, because they won't have that sort of background. But then again, there will be plenty of foreign students who know many scientific words but aren't so sure of themselves in popular idiom. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5419 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 30 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
If we read the abstract quoted, it says exactly what I have been arguing. Note that the researchers confirm the role of age of arrival in the retention of foreign accent. As for grammar and vocabulary, we see that the results vary according to how much education the Korean participants received in the United states and how much the Koreans used English. Is this surprising? Just like the language progress of the graduate students in emk's example above, it's all a question of age and learning conditions. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4522 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 31 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
But you seem to keep shifting the goal posts. At one point you say people have to be <15-years-old to acquire native skills, then you agree with EMK that adults (postdocs are >15 years-old generally) can learn a language if immersed, and now are are again suggesting that adults (>18 years old) can't learn to speak like a native. I am sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but I am bit confused as to the exact claim. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4522 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 32 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The abstract says that it's not a matter of age for anything other than accent. Only accent. Nothing else. Learning conditions are all that matter for everything else, not age. If you can agree that the only advantage for starting a language young, is a possible advantage with acquiring a native accent, I am happy to agree with you. Edited by patrickwilken on 04 February 2014 at 8:45pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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