Why is there so little research? (Philological Room) Language Learning Forum

Why is there so little research?
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beano
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Message 49 of 81

05 February 2014 at 9:43am | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

To come back to the OP and the subject of the lack of research, I think we could turn the question around and ask
why there is so little research coming from the publishers of all these self-learning methods. We've never heard of
anything about the science behind Assimil, Fluenz, Transparent, Michel Thomas, etc. The only one that seems to
have some scientific credentials is the Pimsleur method associated with the late Paul Pimsleur. Despite his
reputations as a revolutionary in the field of self-learning, the only publication I could find was a recent reprint of
his 160 page book How to learn an foreign language.

Rosetta Stone seems to employ a team of real linguists but I'm not sure what they do exactly. Do any of these firms
do any kind of real research into the effectiveness of their products?

There is plenty of empirical evidence to say that learning with Michel Thomas is highly effective. To me, that's far more meaningful than tables of data cooked up in a research laboratory.
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Doitsujin
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Message 50 of 81

05 February 2014 at 10:44am | IP Logged

luke wrote:

This goes for performance in the workplace as well. I've worked with people who said, "I've been doing [professional title] for 20 years", and I think to myself, I was better at doing that after 1 year of study than you are now.

This reminds me of the following quote attributed to German journalist, satirist and writer Kurt Tucholsky:

Kurt Tucholsky wrote:

Laß dir von keinem Fachmann imponieren, der dir erzählt:
"Lieber Freund, das mache ich schon 20 Jahre so!"
Man kann eine Sache auch 20 Jahre lang falsch machen.

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Elexi
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Message 51 of 81

05 February 2014 at 12:34pm | IP Logged

As to Paul Pimsleur's academic output - most of it can be obtained from JSTOR if you
have a subscription from an academic institution:

http://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearchacc=off&wc=on&fc=of f&Query=au:%22Paul+Pimsleur%
22&si=1
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schoenewaelder
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Message 52 of 81

06 February 2014 at 2:00am | IP Logged

Once they start training genetically modified mice to learn foreign languages,then we should start seeing some results.
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palfrey
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Message 53 of 81

06 February 2014 at 3:53am | IP Logged

beano wrote:

There is plenty of empirical evidence to say that learning with Michel Thomas is highly effective. To me, that's far more meaningful than tables of data cooked up in a research laboratory.

An aside, but I suspect you meant to write anecdotal evidence. If there was empirical evidence, properly collected, I don't think there would be much doubt about the effectiveness of a course.
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Fuenf_Katzen
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Message 54 of 81

06 February 2014 at 5:41am | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

But rather than being distracted by that spurious example, let's take something closer to learning a language:
learning to play a musical instrument. What is the best age to start learning the violin? 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, etc.?
I'm not a music teacher, but I do observe that all professional musicians start very early. Can people who start at age
40 do well on the violin? Certainly, but I think most people would say that it is best to start at 5.

Certain types of instrumentalists tend to start earlier, but among classical vocalists, almost all start around 14-16. I've met a few who started younger, but they're definitely the exception. It's interesting because with singers, you can very often tell when they're under 30 just by listening to them, and they tend to have the same "issues" regardless of how long they've been studying. The voice just needs time to settle. There are issues with starting in your mid to late twenties if you want to make a career out of it (most competitions have age restrictions), but purely from a vocal perspective, I haven't noticed any real disadvantages, especially when the age group involved is the 20s-30s. Beyond that there may be more issues, but I don't know anyone who started that late so I have no idea! I don't "regret" not starting earlier, partially because my voice didn't become pleasant to listen to until about two years ago. Starting earlier wouldn't have helped it mature faster.

I do wish I would have started learning languages earlier, just for the time and hours. I think most if not all of the people on this forum who have such great English started learning it when they were young, even if it didn't feel like they were learning much at the time. That's something I don't have (I was 19 when I started), but maybe in a few more years my languages will be closer to that point.
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s_allard
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Message 55 of 81

06 February 2014 at 2:35pm | IP Logged

The analogy that I made with starting a musical instrument is really just an analogy. I readily admit that there all
kinds of nuances according to the particular instrument. But it seems the me that the basic principle remains valid:
nearly all instrumentalists who have achieved very high levels of proficiency, especially at the professional level,
have started very young.

More at an anecdotal level, we regularly hear about kids who start the piano at age, let's say five, and give a solo
concert at age eleven. Who has ever heard of someone taking up the piano at 30 and giving a concert at 36? Is it
possible? I would have to say yes, but I've never heard of it.

To come back to the issue of languages, I'm sure we all agree it's best to start early. The real debate, as I've pointed
out earlier, is the significance of this 5-15 period. Is it something special that will be lost forever or is it just a
period of 10 years like any other in a lifetime? The jury is still out on this.
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s_allard
Triglot
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Message 56 of 81

06 February 2014 at 2:52pm | IP Logged

palfrey wrote:

beano wrote:

There is plenty of empirical evidence to say that learning with Michel Thomas is
highly effective. To me, that's far more meaningful than tables of data cooked up in a research laboratory.

An aside, but I suspect you meant to write anecdotal
evidence. If there was empirical evidence,
properly collected, I don't think there would be much doubt about the effectiveness of a course.

Thanks for this important distinction. To me it highlights the fact that while we talk about the lack of research on
language learning, we hardly know anything about the scientific foundations or the true effectiveness of the vast
range of tools, software, methods, techniques, courses, strategies, etc. that we discuss endlessly here at HTLAL.

I'm astounded, indeed flabbergasted, by the number of online courses, Youtube videos and internet-based
language training companies for the popular languages like French and Spanish - and that's without mentioning
English.

When people ask me for advice or what I think about a given product, I really have to say that I don't know. For
example, Rosetta Stone has a terrible reputation around here, but I actually know people who like it, and it is
widely used in schools here in Canada.

Besides hearsay and, as was pointed out, anecdotal evidence, there seems to be little solid information on how
these products work and their true effectiveness.

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