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Gary’s 2015 TACtivation: FR, IT | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5210 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 41 of 187 02 February 2015 at 11:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Things have been quite positive recently. I've noticed that people tend to treat you much better when you're feeling more positive; I suppose one's mood comes across a lot in non-verbal and implicit communication. And that's a big factor in finding language practice opportunities, as well as speaking confidence as I mentioned in the initial log post. I think a lot of my problems with finding speaking opportunities and taking advantage of them in the second half of last year just came from the fact that I was generally having a bit of a rough period. I doubt that it's coincidence.
There are always highs and lows, so maybe the lows are the time to focus on input and on other interests (I did a lot of music during that time, for example), and leave the speaking/output for when you're feeling more sociable and energetic like I have been recently. I had another week with a lot of Italian, including a dinner at the weekend. There were supposed to be a few other non-Italians coming too but they didn't make it for various reasons, so in the end it was me with 5 Italians. Shame we didn't get to see them, but... good practice for me! With all the recent practice I'm getting a lot more comfortable speaking in these settings. I am starting to feel a bit burnt out, and I have a lot of work on, so I think it's time to calm down a little again even if it means less language practice. Other stuff... French: spoken that a few times, even if nowhere near as much as Italian. Started reading more Houellebecq: Les particules élémentaires. Watched more Fais pas ci, fais pas ça. Tutoring lessons: not done any for a few weeks, I've been too busy and I haven't felt the need, given all the recent social speaking opportunities. Still, they're useful so I'll try and fit a couple in, especially for French since I practise that less. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| suzukaze Triglot Senior Member Italy bit.ly/1bGm459 Joined 4605 days ago 186 posts - 254 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, Spanish Studies: German, French, Swedish, Japanese | Message 42 of 187 02 February 2015 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Registers are certainly tricky, especially if you study by yourself since dictionaries only distinguish between common, archaic, informal/vulgar words. Writers also may switch from one register to another at certain points for many different reasons so it’s not always easy to pick the right word.
Yes, if you openly refer to the style you won’t have problems with double meanings. Thanks for clearing that up!
If you are relatively sure that during a certain period all people, or at least the majority of them, have a good reason to be tired you can use “chiunque” (anyone). Right before the Christmas season for example saying that everybody is tired would be understandable, people are busy buying presents, preparing the Christmas dinner, the workload in certain places (restaurants, shops…) increases and so on. Edited by suzukaze on 02 February 2015 at 3:48pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5210 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 43 of 187 09 February 2015 at 11:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Last week was indeed a very busy one at work, and I was trying to take it easy so I skipped a couple of French meetups. Sleep is always more important, and I'm slowly catching up. I had another Italian-filled weekend though: some practice with an Italian and a couple of other learners on Saturday, then some Skype adventures yesterday (more on that later). I went for a drink with a few French-speakers that evening; I tried to speak some French but of course their insistence on English defeated me just like their rugby team defeated us earlier that day.
I got a whole bunch of Conversation Exchange messages and a few of them turned into Skype chats. Ended up speaking with an Italian for two hours, entirely in Italian, and it probably would have continued even longer but I was tired and hungry so I had to excuse myself. My Italian was nowhere near at its peak, but I can tell I'm making progress again because my level at a low point yesterday seemed about the same as my "peak" level a few months ago. If your current lows are the same as your previous highs then you're doing well! As usual with language exchanges, I expect that I'll probably never hear from most of these people again (and let's face it, if everyone I spoke to once spoke to me again then I'd have no time to fit them all in!), but there are also a couple of people with whom I've spoken a few times now who seem enthusiastic, so I'm less bothered by the time-wasters and the one-call wonders. And I've even been speaking a bit more with my Italian flatmate and her friends: seems like they've realised I'm serious. So no shortage of opportunities for the moment. I've still done no lessons recently... I was going to organise a lesson for the weekend but my tutor is currently busy and doesn't have many slots. I still have three Italian lessons to take from a pre-paid block, but since the block doesn't expire for another few months and I'm already practising lots I might as well save them for a "dry period". I could do with finding a French tutor though, and will look when time permits. Started watching Engrenages season 5, which is currently on iPlayer. It's rare to find a foreign series that actually grips me and makes me want to keep watching, but Engrenages is that. Seen a couple more episodes of Tutti pazzi per amore and it's growing on me: it's a show that seems stupid at first but you come to realise that it's actually quite smartly done. And I ended up seeing a French film (Bande à part) with Italian subtitles... not my choice, but interestingly I found that I kept getting lazy and reading the Italian rather than listening to the French! I don't know if that says much about my relative abilities in the languages; probably more about reading being easier than listening. Finished reading È una vita che ti aspetto... quite an enjoyable book although it gets very cheesy and predictable towards the end. I enjoy a happy ending but Volo does overdo them a bit! At points it almost feels like a self-help book disguised as a novel; not necessarily a bad thing, although he makes it sound a bit simpler than it really is... the protagonist realised that he was unhappy with his life, made some changes and tried some new things, and boom, happily ever after. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5210 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 44 of 187 09 February 2015 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Update following the last post: Longer-term thoughts
I don't try to look at things too long-term, no point in planning when things change so much, but I indulge myself every so often. When you study Italian and speak with Italians, the same question keeps coming up again and again: why are you learning their relatively useless language? Especially to such a high level? I realise that the general HTLAL perspective is that any language merits study and you don't need to have the "good" reasons like living in the country or a native-speaking family/partner or some business utility. But I'm usually quite a pragmatic person so I like "good" reasons. With all my recent practice and the time and effort I've been pouring into the language I'm starting to think about these things more. Anyway, for whatever reason I've decided that I want to speak it well; I'm working towards that and plan to continue to do so for the rest of the year. The last month has shown that I can make good progress if I make an effort to speak enough. I know that it's been a bit of a burst and won't last, but if I can keep it up at least somewhat I should have quite a respectable level by the end of the year. I could probably also duplicate that success with French; obviously I don't have the same social opportunities, but between paid tutors and meetups I could probably build enough momentum if I wanted to. Again it's less a question of "can I?" and more of "is it worth it?"... for Italian it's exactly the social opportunities that motivate me in the first place. My long-term thoughts on French are as undecided as ever. It's early days yet so this is more speculation than planning, but my current thought is to do a bunch of work on Italian for the rest of this year, reach whatever level I reach, and then move on. Put it in maintenance mode and work on Spanish, which will have a nice boost from the high level in Italian and the lessons learnt getting there. I suppose that's the eternal dilemma of the language learner: how good is good enough, where is the point of diminishing returns, is time best spent on improving existing languages or learning new ones? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5169 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 45 of 187 09 February 2015 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thank you for your report on the media you've read/watched, garyb. I'm always collecting them, especially the Italian ones, since I haven't started using native materials yet.
The issue with subtitle and audio in different target languages is a bit complex. I'm watching a series with audio originally in English and I put in Norwegian subtitles. I'm supposed to know much more English than Norwegian, but reading is still faster, you have time to read and process what you read while listening has to be done on-the-go. So, I'm finding it to be an easy exercise because sometimes I understand what was said in English but have no time to process the subtitle; then I have a specific moment of mumbling for which the subtitle will do fine, even in a weaker language. Since French and Italian have a lot in common, I still believe your preference for Italian has to do with French being hard to listen to and with Italian being pretty similar. What about trying to do the opposite? You'll notice Italian sounds more transparent and then you will probably find a balance as in my case with English/Norwegian. As for diminishing returns, I believe you're in an asceding trajectory in terms of perfectioning your languages. I've used language exchange sites and met people with whom I could talk little because my knowledge was limited and the languages (Georgian, Russian, Mandarin) too different from my own; on the other hand, I have trouble finding people to practice French or German with. In your case, since French and Italian are similar between themselves and with English, you don't have to worry that much about reading progress being too slow; so you have more time to work on active skills and these account for a good part of the progress. In languages with so many common words, you have the chance to learn the most important missing words in conversation, surrounded by other words you know. It's much more fun than SRS, for instance. Then as you progress you can discuss more complex - or just different - subjects and force your vocabulary to grow. In languages where basic interaction is a granted, it may be important to push yourself out of the comfort zone and aim for more precise vocabulary as you talk. When I write in French, for example, I try not to think of the common word that pops up first but rather think of a more precise description similar to what I'd do in my native language. Maybe it helps to develop islands by making a list in your native language first and then finding the French/Italian counterparts. If you were describing a situation, a person, an object, a product would you really always use the words good/interesting and nothing else? How can you make your speech more vivid and realistic in that matter too? Just some thoughts, I don't have much experience at this stage really, as I learned French in a rather chaotic way. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5210 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 46 of 187 10 February 2015 at 10:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Interesting to see your thoughts, Expugnator. Perhaps one day soon I'll try watching
Italian with French subtitles, just out of curiosity! What you say about perfecting languages reminds me a lot of what Luca Lampariello says about his own method: at the start when you're learning the basics, you can only do a small amount each day as it's all new and your brain can only handle so much, but once you've built that "language core" you can really start putting in the hours with input and conversation practice as your brain is primed to handle it and learn from it, to build on that foundation and reach a more advanced level. Paraphrasing what you said, in French and Italian I have a solid core now so that's the stage I'm at. My recent experience in Italian shows that, once obstacles like lack of time and opportunities are removed, I can make noticeable progress so indeed I'm probably further from the point of diminishing returns than I sometimes think. I agree about pushing the comfort zone, and that's what I've been doing recently with conversations and with seeking out films/TV that have a lot of informal language. At this level, a few months of immersion would probably work wonders, but it's not realistic at the moment. My French learning has been quite chaotic too! A few years at high school, then a five-year break, then picking it up again and trying everything and anything since it was my first foreign language, and various stops and starts. Italian has been a lot smoother. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5210 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 47 of 187 16 February 2015 at 11:04am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I went to a French meetup last week but there was too much English, including one of these learners who switches to English as soon as they encounter the most minor difficulty, and besides I was too tired to manage decent French. So I just left and got an early night. I don't understand people like that; having a low level isn't a problem, but being unwilling to make an effort is, and as the old saying goes you're only cheating yourself.
I also made it to a Couchsurfing meeting. I have a few friends who're into the scene, and they can be a good bet for language practice. I found some Italians and chatted a bit with them; there were a couple of French people but as usual they weren't so keen to speak their language with non-natives, or maybe I just wasn't assertive enough. And at the weekend I checked out the university meetup, but had foolishly forgotten that France were playing another rugby match at that time so all bets for finding native speakers were off. Plenty more Italian speaking and writing online. Found another Italian who appears to be quite serious about doing a language exchange, but as always, time will tell. As unreliable as the Italians may be, there are so many of them that it's not really a problem: when one loses interest and stops responding, you can just find another. Better than both unreliable and scarce like the French. Sometimes I take it a bit personally when I have a good chat with someone and they say they want to do it again, then they ignore my subsequent messages and delete me from Skype. But hey, you have to focus on the positive: some do keep coming back, and at times people just get too busy or change their mind and it's nothing personal. Media consumption: - Finished season 1 of Fais pas ci, fais pas ça. - Couple more episodes of Engrenages season 5. - Around halfway through Les particules élémentaires. It's getting juicier, and some of the very blunt and completely un-erotic sex descriptions are making me laugh out loud. - Started reading Esche vive by Fabio Genovesi, a contemporary novel that was recommended to me by one of my Skype buddies. Too early to say whether I like it, but it's very easy to read and it's quite long so should be interesting. I'm told it talks about issues in modern Italy like youth unemployment. - Started watching Basilicata coast to coast, one of the films from this beautiful Italian film map that I was recently sent on Facebook: Some of the choices seem a bit arbitrary but there's some good stuff on there, including ones I've been meaning to watch for a while. I'll try to do some writing practice this week if I find time, especially for French as I've not been using it enough and am unlikely to make it to this week's meetups. Edited by garyb on 16 February 2015 at 11:07am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5210 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 48 of 187 19 February 2015 at 11:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I went to French meetup last night, and it's becoming more and more clear that my spoken Italian is now overtaking my spoken French. Hard to tell if it's because the former is improving or the latter is getting worse or both. But time and time again while I was speaking French, the Italian word or expression came to mind before the French one, and at several points, people asked me how to say something in French and I found that I wasn't sure, yet I was quite sure of how to say it in Italian. This has happened the last few times I spoke French as well, so it doesn't just seem like a one-off or bad day.
This inspired a post in the Moving to B2 and C2 thread about improving speaking skills. It's at least as relevant to my log as it is to that topic, so here's the relevant part:
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