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Shadowing vs Echoing | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Shusaku Senior Member United States Joined 7091 days ago 145 posts - 157 votes  1 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese | Message 17 of 24 12 July 2005 at 7:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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UPDATE: I've been practicing quite a bit over the past few days and found that shadowing does become easier with practice. In order to keep pace, I've found that I need to first keep the volume loud enough so as to not drown out the speaker, and second, to keep focused and find a way to quickly re-enter the dialog after points where I lose the thread. The second point is quite difficult because it is easy to get tripped up after missing a word or two. I plan to use shadowing as my primary study technique for the next couple of weeks or so to see how much I improve. So far I really enjoy this technique.
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| axe02 Triglot Groupie Joined 7212 days ago 71 posts - 73 votes Speaks: English*, Portuguese, French | Message 18 of 24 13 July 2005 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'm also finding shadowing a bit easier to tackle now that I'm shadowing just one speaker at a time, and then another, each time I play the recording. Before, I tried to shadow the entire conversation. I'm going to also experiment with software to slow down audio recordings. Luckily, there are already some available in the fast and slow format online (for French).
For me, there is still lingering confusion over when to use the transcript. Some people state that you should not use the transcript until after you've listened to the recording a few times and made at least one attempt to shadow the speakers. Other sources, such as the people behind the Assimil and Fluent French programs, seem to advise reading along with the transcript right from the beginning. I know this might seem like a small difference, but proponents of the first method claim that reading first is detrimental to properly developing your ear for the sounds and achieving fluency. I wondered if this would really make a difference or not. I didn't use shadowing when I learned my other foreign language, so I can't determine whether this would be true for me or not. Does anyone have enough experience with this to comment? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| victor Tetraglot Moderator United States Joined 7309 days ago 1098 posts - 1056 votes 6 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, FrenchC1, Mandarin Studies: Spanish Personal Language Map | Message 19 of 24 14 July 2005 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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axe02: I can hardly be called an person with enough experience, but what I can tell you is that it differs from person to person. For example, I am a learner who relies somewhat heavily seeing a word to know how to say it, as opposed to the many many people who feel that writing and speaking/listening are completely different aspects of a language.
I say you should take both approaches. For some, don't read transcripts and read them for more difficult material. Especially for French, liaison between the words and the many homophones can confuse you while listening, but maybe you would know all the words. Here are a few questions to ask yourself: 1) Have I just begun studying the language? 2) Do I already know how to pronounce most words with almost-native like accuracy? Have I grasped the sound system of the language? 3)Do I learn the sound and the written form of the word simultaneously or at different times? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| cheemaster Newbie Canada Joined 7036 days ago 35 posts - 35 votes | Message 20 of 24 08 October 2005 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Shusaku: How did your shadowing experiences turn out? Are you still using this technique? I too have had trouble with the pace of speech, and hope to hear that it improves with practice.
I am sure that Ardaschir could answer questions regarding speed and the use of a transcript, unfortunatly (and understandably) he does not appear to be currently active. I am confused on two points regarding shadowing. Firstly, does one speak at exactly the same time as the speaker(after having memorized the audio content), or immediately after the speaker, as translators often do? Secondly, should one shadow the entire tape in one go, repeating until the content has been internalised? Or is it more effective to shadow small chunks of audio, progressing to another such chunk, after full understanding/internalisation of the first chunk has been achieved? If the latter is more effective, how small should such segments be? 1 minute? 10? I thank anyone in advance who takes the time to clarify my confusion. Edited by cheemaster on 08 October 2005 at 9:21pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Shusaku Senior Member United States Joined 7091 days ago 145 posts - 157 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese | Message 21 of 24 08 October 2005 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Cheemaster: Yes, I've been using this technique for a few months now. It has definitely become easier with practice, but I find that it still requires a fair bit of energy and concentration. I've had the most success early in the morning while driving to work - I can usually shadow for 30 minutes at that time without too much trouble, but later in the day my ability to keep up tends to decline. Interestingly, I've found that shadowing has actually helped me more with my listening comprehension than my speaking.
I don't think you should try to memorize the content since you don't speak at exactly the same time - rather, you are always a split second behind the speaker. As for how long the audio segments should be, I'm really not sure if there is a right answer. I've personally been using a collection of dialogues which are between 1 to 3 minutes each. I have a few hours worth of full-speed audio and I just set the dialogues to play at random. I've found that by doing it this way, each time I tend to gain greater clarity on details that I didn't fully understand before. Keep practicing - this is probably the most useful technique I've picked up since I started reading this forum. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| cheemaster Newbie Canada Joined 7036 days ago 35 posts - 35 votes | Message 22 of 24 09 October 2005 at 12:19am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Thank you, this clarifies things for me. I recall having read of a similar technique with something called the Birkenbihl approach. I will post the link if I can find it.
Do you not repeat individual dialogues until you have internalised them, before continuing with others? From what I understand, complete ineternalisation of dialogues is key to truly understanding the target language with this method. Am I mistaken?
While I understand the theory behind contextual learning, I am having trouble grasping the concept at the practical level. How do you actually understand the meaning of words that you do not know? How does this work for a nearly total beginner? Have I missed an important point somewhere (ie simultaneously reading a translation of the dialogues)? I realize that this last issue is a little off-topic, although as it ties in with the first two points, I have posted it here. I look forward to reading your experiences/thoughts on this matter (and those of anyone else). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Bart Triglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 7151 days ago 155 posts - 159 votes Speaks: Dutch*, French, English Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese, Swedish | Message 23 of 24 09 October 2005 at 2:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I use my Assimil courses the way Ardaschir described, but I don't shadow the audio of the entire course in one go, instead I make mp3s of the audio of each 'unit' of 7 lessons and shadow those until I feel I can move on to the next "chunk" of 7 lessons. Every day I start my study by shadowing all the lessons (in units of 7) up untill the one I'll be working on that day. This way it doesn't get boring, I keep practicing and every time I shadow the dialogues it gives me just that little bit more understanding of my target language.
edit: I forgot to add that those 'units' are also just the right length to shadow between doing other things, between about 6 and 10 minutes each. Edited by Bart on 09 October 2005 at 2:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Shusaku Senior Member United States Joined 7091 days ago 145 posts - 157 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese | Message 24 of 24 09 October 2005 at 11:04am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Personally I prefer to keep moving on to new dialogues before I've fully internalized each one. It takes a while for new material to sink-in and I don't think it's possible to really internalize such material until you've seen it in several contexts. If you learn a new pattern in one dialogue, you'll eventually encounter it again later which will help to solidify your understanding.
When working with a new dialogue, before shadowing, I usually read the transcript and listen to the audio a bunch of times until I can passively recognize all of the new patterns and vocabulary. Once I am familiar with the contents I move on to working solely with the audio. I should have clarified that the dialogues I play at random are ones which I'm already at least passively familiar with. If you have an MP3 player you can add new dialogues one at a time to your shadowing playlist as you progress through new lessons. This makes it easy to keep moving while simultaneously reviewing what you already know. Hope this helps! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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