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My English teacher really hates Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| apparition Octoglot Senior Member United States Joined 6652 days ago 600 posts - 667 votes  Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), French, Arabic (Iraqi), Portuguese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Pashto | Message 89 of 194 09 November 2007 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
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So, Esperanto is more of a club's 'secret handshake' than anything else. :)
EDIT: On second thought, all languages are, just on a wider scale. Edited by apparition on 09 November 2007 at 8:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7158 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 90 of 194 09 November 2007 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Sprachprofi, you probably know that people being able to communicate to each other in the same language has little correlation to the chances of peace. Wars break out because of other reasons and sometimes groups just want to misunderstand each other no matter which language they speak or how close their languages are. I'm thinking of the American Civil War or the American Revolution. In both examples, the warring sides spoke English. In addition, in more heated times, turns of phrase from the same language/communicative code could become markers of being one of the good guys or bad guys (e.g. during the Balkan wars, using "characteristically Serbian" turns of phrase would be viewed very negatively in Croatia and likewise with "characteristically Croatian" turns of phrase in Serbia - even though what most Croats and Serbs spoke (and still speak) were variants of a common language/communicative code).
While Esperanto doesn't expressly encourage the trampling of existing natural languages, the average person isn't like many of us on this forum when it comes to language study. If an average person would speak his/her native tongue and Esperanto (which let's say would be the world's lingua franca) what motivation would this person have in learning another language? A lot of people don't care for multilingualism because of economic reasons. All of my colleagues in business find it amusing that I study languages on the side or read Polish literature on the way to work. While I know that my colleagues are all intelligent people (much more than I with their MBAs or certifications/designations) when it comes to languages they'll only learn them if it matches their needs or their interests. This is what some Esperantists seem to forget by repeatedly saying that the Esperanto movement doesn't discourage multilingualism. The problem is that a lot of average folk don't care about multilingualism in the first place. For many people, being bilingual in native tongue + lingua franca is enough. I'm of the view that the global or even regional lingua francas come and go, and that such things just evolve and emerge that way because of historical "accidents". For example, what would have happened if Napoleon had been more successful and France's domination been longer? Would the British Empire have been able to grow to the extent that did and play a major role in making English the international auxiliary language of today? Would it really be that much better for the entire world if Esperanto were the international auxiliary language? It's hard to say, and the discussion about it doesn't go too far, since we can think of pros and cons in the presence of an international auxiliary language, natural or planned. However, I do agree with you that because Esperanto lacks institutional backing, what's left are the efforts of its speakers to maintain the language. Some of these speakers go overboard in their efforts to spread the word, others don't. Unfortunately, the speakers who do go overboard (and exude either a lot of enthusiasm or make the movement seem like a cult) don't always give Esperanto a good name. Thus the results are mixed. This "uneven propagation" (deliberate or not) understandably leaves some people wary or indifferent (like me and Iversen), generates more enthusiastic supporters (some of the members here who've taken on the language), or reinforces some people's skepticism (like furyou_gaijin) When it comes to enriching experiences, those kinds of things are subjective, and I find it hard to believe that somehow your experience is much better in absolute terms than that of an ESL student who finds that he can communicate and share experiences with a monolingual English speaker, or when I speak Slovak to my monolingual Slovak friends when travelling through their country. It's true that the Esperanto movement attracts a lot of open-minded people but I can say the same thing with groups such as Hospitality Club and Couchsurfing (I'm a member of both). For sure I've had some fine experiences meeting like-minded people who've hosted me, partied with me and just been fine company. However, in all cases, no one on either end is obliged to learn another language or somehow subscribe to a sort of code of conduct like the fundamento. The unspoken (but obvious) underlying spirit is that members of HC or CS had better be open-minded and basically do unto others as they would like for themselves. Moreover my knowledge of different Eastern European languages has allowed me to meet other members who prefer to use their native Hungarian or Slavonic tongues, even though all of them know varying degrees of English, French or German. Whenever possible, I follow the principle of "When in Rome..." since I as a guest should show some respect to the native culture and not expect them bend over backwards or switch to a "neutral" language unless it's insisted upon (which would be a little strange) or a matter of life and death. While I'm proud to say that I've had enriching experiences using HC and CS, out of principle I can never say that I've had more enriching experiences than someone else who meets outsiders in other ways (such as through Esperanto conferences). This is what I find a little odd, and what furyou_gaijin alluded to by using the example of model railroad collectors. There's nothing wrong with being hobbyists or language nuts like we are, it's only when we hobbyists/language nuts start to believe that our particular hobby is more than what it is and expect that the rest of the world should see it in this heightened sense. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| furyou_gaijin Senior Member Japan Joined 6388 days ago 540 posts - 631 votes Speaks: Latin* | Message 91 of 194 10 November 2007 at 5:05am | IP Logged | |||||
Modern Chinese language has a tendency towards bisyllability to facilitate understanding of the spoken language and 【世界】 is the accepted modern word for the concept. 【世语】 actually sounds very poetic and this is what they would have called it in the times of Confucian & Co. However, 【世语】 actually does exist and means 'vulgar speech' or 'popular political opinions'. Both notions coined in the Ming and Tang dynasties, respectively... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Art Newbie Russian Federation Joined 6536 days ago 24 posts - 24 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 92 of 194 10 November 2007 at 8:11am | IP Logged | |||||
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- Edited by Art on 10 November 2007 at 8:33am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Art Newbie Russian Federation Joined 6536 days ago 24 posts - 24 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 93 of 194 10 November 2007 at 8:13am | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't know, maybe nowadays I'm alone in my view that Esperanto is an ideology and it is a very dangerous thing and it is impossible to separate Espreatno as a language and Espreanto as a world movement. But to me Esperanto is in its essence about politics, not about language.
--- ... There are certainly several common characteristics between, on the one hand, basic socialist ideology and, on the other hand, the principle of an international language and its significance for worker Esperantists. Here are some examples of those common characteristics: 1. Firstly, living within both are internationalist ideas about unity of the workers of the world. 2. Secondly, socialism is linked to scientific planning of society, and Esperanto, as a constructed language, is congruent with this concept. 3. Thirdly, a common international language, like Esperanto, tends to undermine national loyalty, and thus the chauvinism which nourishes militarism and capitalism - two enemies of socialism. 4. Fourthly, the practical use of Esperanto is important for the education of workers, hence for their emancipation, for which socialism strives. In short, socialist ideology is in principle very much in accord with the democratic spirit of Esperanto. .... http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/409/esperanto.html 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| epingchris Triglot Senior Member Taiwan shih-chuan.blog.ntu. Joined 7030 days ago 273 posts - 284 votes 5 sounds Studies: Taiwanese, Mandarin*, English, FrenchB2 Studies: Japanese, German, Turkish | Message 94 of 194 10 November 2007 at 8:21am | IP Logged | |||||
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Esperanto has vocabulary, phonology, grammar rules, literature (both translated to and created in), speakers, so I just don’t see why it can’t be considered as a language. You call a baby a baby even if it’s fertilized in vitro. You call a corn a corn even if it’s genetically modified. Besides, there are some native speakers of Esperanto, raised by some Esperantists. I don’t really like the idea though, and please don’t ask me to justify it; it is a matter of taste.
That brings up one important aspect that some people overlooked: the matter of taste. Some people like it, some people just can't stand it. That's perfectly natural. For example, if I hate eggplants (and in fact I do), I wouldn’t go sending remarks on how it is stupid to eat eggplants, nor would I want to be called stupid by eggplant-lovers. I’ve truly read people who defend Esperanto fervently, claiming it to be superior in such a fallacious way that it made me sick; I’m also turned off by people who just want to put down Esperanto whenever they see it mentioned. Those are no healthy attitudes. Some Esperantists are annoyed that they always see Esperanto being bashed, thus they jump at any slight criticism of the language. Some people are annoyed that they always see Esperantists making naïve claims, thus they frown whenever they see someone praising Esperanto. Note the key word: “they always see”: we all react more or less basing on our personal experience, and it is by no means accurate, complete or objective. Please try to remember that before making generalizations (if I’ve made some in my posts, please be kind to remind me, though through PM please: it is a language forum after all, not a debate skill forum) I learned Esperanto briefly myself: I just thought it'd be interesting, as I was when I touched Irish, Arabic and Russian briefly. It indeed was - just as it is when I learn any other language. Fact: it is easy - it may not be the easiest language possible in an ideal situation, as its -n case ending, agreements, strange diaritics could have certainly been modified with better outcomes. I don’t think, however, that I can find a natural language that is easier than Esperanto, at least not that I know of. I am doubtful that we could even create an absolutely easiest language - hopefully no Esperantist makes that claim. Remember also that “easiness” lies in the eyes of the learner. Fact: it is eurocentric - you can’t deny it if you once you look at the agreements, vocabulary and phonology. Maybe it's too eurocentric if its original purpose was to be a lingua franca, but it depends on how Eurocentric you perceive it to be: that’s not easily measured. I’m a native Mandarin speaker, so I speak for myself when I say that while Esperanto is eurocentric, English, French etc are even more that way, so relatively it does not pose as a problem to Esperanto for East Asians or people from other areas of the globe. I must admit that, before reading this thread, I really thought Esperanto had no significant benefits: “surely you could travel anywhere with Esperantist clubs, but if you learn the country’s natural language you can communicate with any people you encounter there, whereas you could only do so with Esperantists if you use Esperanto. The diversity is much lower.” “Surely you could obtain lots of infos online in Esperanto, but English’s got a bunch more.” Those arguments are not easily dismissed, but never did I realize that Esperanto could be put to use in other ways. Be as discontent with Esperanto as one can be, but can we really say that Remush and his wife made a bad choice? We may most readily opt for learning the native language of our spouses and, after a period of studying (probably longer than Remush’s), developing deep mutual understanding: learning Esperanto, in that case, is a bad choice for us. It worked well nonetheless with Remush (according to my understanding of his tone). One can argue that they can’t develop mutual understanding as deeply as our approach enables us to, but we don’t really have enough information and intensive, thorough studies to make that assertion. Fact: There are ideologies in Esperanto’s creation, the most cited being probably that it promotes world peace, diminishes cultural biases, and may serve as a lingua franca. We can argue about ideologies, but it doesn’t necessarily have to happen here, nor does it have to be tied directly to the language itself. There are also ideologies concerning certain natural languages held by enthusiasts: this fact may help ideologies held by some Esperantists to seem less disturbing. Note also that Esperanto has drifted far away enough from its creation times. My personal opinion about the ideologies? Well, I think world peace and diminishing cultural biases are good thoughts, but there are already questions raised as to “Could they be achieved?”, “Should efforts be put in to try to achieve them?”, “How many efforts should be put in?”, “What should we do?”, let along “Are Esperanto really helpful in that direction?”. I don’t want to elaborate on this: I’m not particularly motivated to discuss it anywhere online for it’s too time-consuming (hey, what am I doing then?). I don’t see much chance of it becoming a lingua franca in my lifetime (I’m 17), but my oh my does the world advance in a way we could never predict! I’m not really clear on what I intend to accomplish with this two-page long response - a lot of what I said has been said already, and I don’t know if the fight would cease a bit after this post, but I guess humans have the desire to express their views, and that’s a pretty fair justification. PS: of course it would be called “世界語”. You want us to call it “愛斯不難讀” (ai-si-bu-nan-du, “Es is not hard to read”) ? :) PPS: furyou_gaijin explained very nicely the situation on "世界". I couldn't have put it better myself. I didn't even know there were extra meanings for "世語"! Have you studied Chinese before, or are you studying it right now? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| remush Tetraglot Groupie Belgium remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6270 days ago 79 posts - 94 votes Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch Studies: German, Polish | Message 95 of 194 10 November 2007 at 9:15am | IP Logged | |||||
Very interesting. An additional question if I may: does this 界 pop up in other situations. From what you said it seems that there could be other such characters that are added sometimes. Are there any rules for that or were these rules not yet described. This addition cannot happen at random (at least in a very old language, I guess). About the current meaning of 世语, does that mean that, like in our languages, the etymological sense of a word can be very far from its meaning if you just decompose it? This is a surprise to me. I guess this is what happens naturally in very old languages. Edited by remush on 10 November 2007 at 9:16am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| remush Tetraglot Groupie Belgium remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6270 days ago 79 posts - 94 votes Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch Studies: German, Polish | Message 96 of 194 10 November 2007 at 9:24am | IP Logged | |||||
is 愛斯不難讀 actually used, or did you just made it up right now? (for those who did not notice, this is the phonetic for "esperanto") I like your analogy with corn and babies. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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