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My English teacher really hates Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| remush Tetraglot Groupie Belgium remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6270 days ago 79 posts - 94 votes  Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch Studies: German, Polish | Message 113 of 194 12 November 2007 at 6:46am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Stalemate! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| epingchris Triglot Senior Member Taiwan shih-chuan.blog.ntu. Joined 7030 days ago 273 posts - 284 votes 5 sounds Studies: Taiwanese, Mandarin*, English, FrenchB2 Studies: Japanese, German, Turkish | Message 114 of 194 12 November 2007 at 8:54am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
A brief wikipedia search didn't provide much light on the first question, unfortunately. I think that the term is used by the majority of Chinese-speaking Esperantists since it's much easier than saying "ai-si-bu-nan-du". It wouldn't be known to Chinese speakers everywhere because, like in other countries, Esperantists remain minority in Chinese-speaking regions. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| furyou_gaijin Senior Member Japan Joined 6388 days ago 540 posts - 631 votes Speaks: Latin* | Message 115 of 194 12 November 2007 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
But a brief Wikipedia search has brought forward another animal: 大同語! Aï yoooo... Where is this world coming to... http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/大同語 Edited by furyou_gaijin on 12 November 2007 at 1:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| rudyman12 Triglot Newbie United States Joined 6771 days ago 30 posts - 29 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, French, Esperanto Studies: Russian, Japanese | Message 116 of 194 18 November 2007 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Many people use esperanto in their daily lives (although I can't say that I do), and I find no problem with it having no cultural background.
After all, that's the whole point of the language, right? A cultural background would mean it would no longer be as suitable as a universal language. I definitely support the idea of Esperanto and it's probably the best candidate out there for a world language. Edited by rudyman12 on 18 November 2007 at 3:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6472 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 117 of 194 18 November 2007 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I think there can be no question of Esperanto's better suitability (compared to natural languages) as a language for communication between people with different mother tongues. Introducing Esperanto-teaching in schools worldwide for this purpose would be the most logical decision, as teaching Esperanto is much more efficient than teaching of e. g. English, French, Spanish, Russian or Chinese could ever be (not that these languages couldn't or shouldn't be taught in addition).
What people have fierce arguments about is: - Will leaders ever make this seemingly dead-easy choice? Will Esperanto ever receive such wide recognition? UNESCO already twice recommended the teaching of Esperanto, but countries like the USA and France and many others obviously have an economic interest in people using English or French to communicate internationally. For me, the outcome depends on too many unpredictable variables (like where the next Universal Congress is taking place; China introduced Esperanto in some schools for that event) to warrant an argument. - Will enough people voluntarily (without having to learn it at school) decide to pick up Esperanto, either because of idealism or perceived practical value of the language? This is also not really arguable, because it's a hard philosophical question, as you have to weigh people's laziness against their desire to do good or their desire to improve themselves / their situation. Of course it also depends on Esperanto's outreach, i. e. whether people even hear about Esperanto or have the chance to learn it. The internet helps here. - Should I personally learn Esperanto? As soon as people understand that Esperanto "would be the logical choice for an international language", the question of whether or not to learn it becomes a matter of taste, interest, personally derivable value (some will find Esperanto very valuable for their plans, others not, and it's only partly a matter of perception), priorities... not something that should be argued about. I would prefer to see less of these fruitless arguments that can't be decided one way or another, and more simple objective information about Esperanto. There are a couple hardened prejudices that have to be destroyed (such as Esperanto not having its own literature; actually there are more than 25,000 books in Esperanto, most of them original writings, and various recognizable literary schools), so that people can make an informed decision, but then it's up to every individual whether he wants to learn Esperanto based on that information or not - just as is the case for every other foreign language people may or may not decide to learn. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6441 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 118 of 194 18 November 2007 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Indeed, in many cases. I was reading earlier today about the rather fierce linguistic debates in Switzerland. The Italian-language perspective on this is particularly defensive, as it's already less widely spoken than French and German. There is serious resistance to, and a fear of, a future where Swiss of different native languages default to speaking English with each other. The costs of learning English are considered high, both monetarily and culturally. The articles I read proposed a tax on on anglophone countries, to compensate for this; this is rather impractical, even if it were meant seriously, rather than rhetorically. The disadvantage of being a non-native speaker in a conversation with a native speaker, a relatively major consideration in these articles, is exactly one of the points which Esperanto was designed to address; that it was not considered seemed slightly ironic, or amusing in a sad way. I don't think Esperanto is a viable solution in the case of Switzerland: it lacks the economic and political heft of English, teachers, and support, and like English, it comes at a cultural cost, as three languages (Romansh, perhaps unfortunately, does not seem to be widely taught or spoken) is a manageable number, unlike the 11 of South Africa, where a lingua franca truly is necessary. Culturally, Esperanto would perhaps be preferable to English, though this doesn't strike me as a certainty.
It's not a dead-easy choice, even seemingly. The Esperanto community is currently small; optimistic estimates mention 10 million fluent speakers. As you mentioned, several powerful countries have vested interests in promoting other languages - France, the UK, and the US come to mind, but Germany certainly invests heavily in language teaching as well. Esperanto culture does exist, which is a double-edged sword: it's younger and smaller than that of other languages with a claim to internationalism, and it isn't entirely neutral, though it may be closer than any alternative.
I'd say that a century of history says that the answer is "no" - even ignoring the philosophical weighing above, there are many valid paths to improvement other than Esperanto, for many valid purposes, many of which are not linguistic.
Esperanto is _a_ logical choice for an international language; to call it _the_ logical choice strikes me as somewhat too strong. How can it be defended against theoretically 'better' constructed languages (in terms such as consistency, a less Indo-European grammar, and ease of learning)? To do so in terms of number of speakers, historical background, culture, etc, seems rather hypocritical, in light of why it's promoted as being a better option than, say, French.
Agreed.
Agreed again. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6472 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 119 of 194 19 November 2007 at 4:10am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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My point was not about whether an individual country should start teaching Esperanto now - though there are certainly advantages even today. I'm not very aware of the particular situation in Switzerland, but I'd say that if school currently leaves the majority of the population with less than fluent command of the other national languages, Esperanto should at least be considered, because it would allow for easy communication between everybody - and in the case of strong regional identities, people wouldn't feel that another region dominates the rest (which would be the case if everybody had to learn one region's language).
But my point was that countries should be ready to agree to start offering Esperanto at schools if it's a concerted effort that all or many countries would participate in, because then Esperanto would be the logical choice; rejecting Esperanto on that occasion in favour of English, French, Russian, Chinese or whatever natural language would be illogical and a detriment to everybody who is then forced to invest more time and more money into the teaching of languages less suitable as international languages. What bugs me is that they already had the opportunity three times and persist in this wrong way: twice the UNESCO tried to pass such a resolution and would end up only being able to pass a "recommendation", and once already in 1920, when the delegates of Belgium, Brazil, Chile, China, Haiti, India, Italy, Columbia, Persia, South Africa and Czechoslovakia proposed a similar resolution to the League of Nations. I do not think that teachers would be a problem, as right now there is an abundance of them: for example the German Esperanto Youth offers to send a free teacher to any group of people that decides to learn Esperanto. Also, since fluency in Esperanto can be acquired much faster than fluency in any other language, it shouldn't take long to prepare more teachers for the teaching of Esperanto, whereas right now Germany faces a severe shortage in language teachers because many complete their studies without actually being able to speak the language.
Bad wording on my part, sorry. I was referring to those people who choose to learn Esperanto for practical reasons, whatever that may mean for the individual: broadening their mind, talking to their spouse, having access to more world literature, getting free accomodation worldwide... there are as many reasons as there are people who learn it and I wanted to find words to encompass all of them.
I do not believe that history can count for the future in this case, because when Esperanto was first invented, few people could have had a use for it: the people who travelled to other countries or who actually met foreigners more than once in their lives were actually a minority. Hence, the majority of the population couldn't have seen a use for Esperanto - today of course it's vastly different. Of course many also never heard of Esperanto, seeing the lack of communication flow between countries or even between science and the general population, particularly in smaller towns. This is different today, too, and you can find Esperanto speakers even in rural Kazakhstan. At the time, many professors weren't afraid to openly claim that the small man was too stupid to be learning a language and that communications between countries should be left to scholars and politicians. This is different today, too, and they would be laughed at for a statement like that. Also, nationalism used to be very strong and there were a lot of authoritarian regimes for which it was in their best interest to persecute Esperanto speakers in order to prevent ordinary people from uncovering the propaganda lies through communication with foreigners. You can't blame the Esperanto movement for losing its momentum when Esperanto speakers had to be afraid of deportation and execution under Hitler and Stalin. Today the wind is much more favourable, the EU even subsidises Esperanto organizations to some extend, and the vast majority of people everywhere, even in PR China, are curious about foreign cultures, want to make friends around the world, believe in peace and understanding. All this together signifies a situation that is much more favourable towards the idea of Esperanto than has ever existed before. Edited by Sprachprofi on 19 November 2007 at 4:51am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Art Newbie Russian Federation Joined 6536 days ago 24 posts - 24 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 120 of 194 19 November 2007 at 2:40pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Sprachprofi, you are blessed in your ignorance.
1) As I stated above Espranto isn't neutral. It's have a lot in common with communism + has its unique totalitarian ideas and the history of Espranto including its birth is not neutral. If the goals of Esperanto were neutral, there whould be no persecutions at all in the past. 2) Read the real linguistics papers about languages. I mean linguistics as a science, not as a hobby. Esperanto and many others 'lofty' projects that aim to became 'the universal' language are not feasable because of what a real language is and how it works. 3) You are mentioning China a lot and that Esperanto is so popular nowadays there. Here is the deal: it is popular in China for the same very reason why English is popular there -- for the need of better life (read: $) through opening new Western contacts. 4) "A language is a dialect with an army and navy" Max Weinreich. Esperanto will never recieve recogonition from world leaders. And the very day Esperanto recieves support from any world power means the end of the formal 'neutrality' of Esperanto. 5) If Esperanto became the world langugae it whould destoy other native languages in a very shord period -- this is due to the nature of humans of having the tendency to speak only one language (this is also one of the reasons why there is so called 'the language barrier'). and so on and so forth... :D Edited by Art on 19 November 2007 at 2:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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