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My English teacher really hates Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6472 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes  Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 121 of 194 19 November 2007 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Art, you may wish me to be naive, but I'm not. I am a linguist, I have written my share of papers, I worked as a researcher for the Quebec documentation centre at Duisburg-Essen University for several years (which required reading A LOT of linguistic journals, believe me!), I speak several languages and as a board member of a big Esperanto organization I probably know more about Esperanto than you.
1) if Esperanto was Communist, why did the Communists persecute Esperanto speakers? Just about any authoritarian regime was against Esperanto, that should go to tell you that no matter what Esperanto is, it's NOT favorable to authoritarian ideas. And even without history, it doesn't take much to figure that out: a language as such does not convey an ideology, no matter how much you try. The only idea that "comes shipped" with Esperanto is the one of peace and mutual respect worldwide, including respect for all political or religious beliefs. And the only reason that's a necessary prerequisite for Esperanto is because xenophobes can't be in favor of a neutral international language as they don't want to communicate to foreigners, and warmongers don't want their population to be able to get news from the countries under aggression. 2) linguists do not agree about what a language is or how it works, hence some may propose definitions that are too narrow and would make you believe that e. g. Piraha~ or Hebrew or Indonesian aren't languages. In those cases, it's the linguists that err, because people obviously speak those languages, and do so without first checking the definitions based on incomplete knowledge. Esperanto is a language because it works - and what else would you call something that people use as their primary tool for everyday communication for years (as my boyfriend has and several people we personally know)? 3) who claims that people everywhere aren't influenced by $ when making their decisions. I sometimes give the example of China because that's where I realized that English doesn't even come close as an alternative to Esperanto. People in China certainly know that they could be making more $$$ by fluently speaking English rather than Esperanto, particularly those working in hotels, Chinese language schools, tourist shops near the sights and the like, yet even there I was hard pressed to find anybody capable of having even a basic conversation in English, whereas I met a lot of young Chinese people who had managed to reach fluency in Esperanto (and they assured me it took them much less time, too). I could cite other countries where Esperanto is very active right now as examples, for example Brazil, Iran, Japan, Eastern Europe, France or even Germany, but China is the most striking that I personally have seen. 4) the citation is out of place because it's about the difference between a language and a dialect. You are not arguing that Esperanto is a dialect, are you? Esperanto is something completely new, that the world hasn't seen before, so I'd be very careful about making prophesies (especially seeing how much has changed in the past 50 years, or even the past 20...). I stick to hard facts, like that the situation looks more favorable for Esperanto now than it did 50-100 years ago. If Esperanto, as happened in 1920, is endorsed by countries as diverse as Belgium, Brazil, Chile, China, Haiti, India, Italy, Columbia, Persia, South Africa and Czechoslovakia, I don't think that harms its neutrality, it affirms it. 5) today most people have learned at least one foreign language at school, usually for a few years. There is no tendency to only speak one language, for example also look at Montrealers who have been happily mixing French and English for many years now, without any tendency to speak only one or the other language. The 'tendency' and the language barrier you speak of are the ones created by people not learning (enough) languages to fluency at school, and the reason the majority can't achieve language fluency at school is because natural languages are too difficult to be learned by the less talented or less resourceful within that limited time frame. All studies on that subject show that if Esperanto was taught in the same time frame, the results would be much better, decreasing the language barrier. Esperanto, unlike English, Russian or Chinese that have even tried to forcefully eradicate other languages, explicitly states that it never wishes to become a mother tongue - and there's no reason to teach it as mother tongue, because it's not hard to learn at all. Some people teach their kids Chinese nowadays because they believe Chinese is otherwise too hard to master... Edited by Sprachprofi on 19 November 2007 at 3:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Art Newbie Russian Federation Joined 6536 days ago 24 posts - 24 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 122 of 194 19 November 2007 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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1. I was raised in the citadel of Communism. Belive me, Communism has many facets.
2. You claim that you see that Esperanto works. I claim that English works and Esperanto doesn't. In Russia I've been approached many times by many foreigners and they started to talk to me in English. In Russia Espernato is nothing because people think it died with the USSR for good. I use English for the international communication and it works. Take this site as one of many examples :) 3. What about arabs? Are they eager to accept a language that was developed by a jew? Esperanto is a neutral language for arabs, don't you think? No politics, for sure, no political history of Esperanto. :) 4. You met people who speaks Esperanto because you was on an Esperanto trip. The chances to find at random an Esperanto speaker in any country are slim, I'd say near zero. And the most important question -- why do you think that a lot of people in the world are eager to accept your Esperanto idea and don't have the right to oppose Esperanto as eager as you promote it because those people see the danger of Esperanto as a movement? I'm a Russian, live in Russia and I'm saying that for the good of my country we should learn English as a second language for business and international communication and don't test crazy commuists ideas of the Esperanto movement -- we did it in the past at a very high price (I mean communists ideas). And we should promote Russian again -- I have an exprience when I visit the Middle East and Russian was for use for me -- a lot of people spoke it perfectly due to the legacy of the USSR and those speakers were fond of the fact that they were taught in the USSR and knew Russian. :) Don't youl like Russian as the international language? Now you can understand why others don't like Esperanto as the international language. :) So, make your own country bilingual at the official level -- German and Esperanto. If it works, other counties will pick up your 'Esperanto as a second language' idea. For example I don't want that such experements of yours being coundacted in Russia. As for starters, make your goverment teach Esperanto to the new immgirants to Germany and not punish then for failing the test in basic German. :) P.S. I know that Esperanto would never work. I'm not promoting Russian, English or whatever language as the internatinal one. I'm a reallist in this sense. But I don't like the idea of me learning Esperanto because someone who doesn't know me and who are out of touch with reallity decided that I and my country should. Edited by Art on 19 November 2007 at 4:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6945 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 123 of 194 19 November 2007 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Really? The "Members->By Native Language" list shows that 64% of registered forum members speak English as their native language, with the very next language, Spanish, accounting for only 4% of the registered members. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7158 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 124 of 194 19 November 2007 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I agree that it's a language, but I say that it's a language not really because it works, but because some people use it. By definition, all "languages" (or dialects) work. A language that doesn't "work" can't really exist except on paper on in someone's imagination. Anyway, "language" is a fairly broad term. One can use the word to describe ASL or Visual Basic or Tok Pisin too.
I could cite other countries where English is very active right now. So what? I don't see the point when you replace "Esperanto" with "English". :-P Seriously, when it comes to meeting young people who speak Esperanto, perhaps there's some kind of selection bias going on. What I mean is that you're fluent in Esperanto, and once you somehow run across one such speaker, it's not surprising that one thing leads to another and that you meet even more speakers of Esperanto either by your own effort or you get introduced to other Esperanto-speakers. From my view as an outsider it's natural but perhaps gives the impression that a lot of people must speak Esperanto, when the truth is that people who speak Esperanto are widely spread-out but the absolute numbers are still not large (I use the estimate of 1.5 million). I just think that Esperanto speakers are like other communities. In this case they feel solidarity or a bond because of their choice to study Esperanto and ceterus paribus naturally enjoy the company of like-minded people slightly more than those who don't speak Esperanto. Birds of a feather flock together, I suppose.
For me the only hard facts about Esperanto are: - It's an artificial/constructed/planned language - Zamenhof created it as a tool for peace in the belief that misunderstandings are the source of conflict and that having everyone speak the same language would eliminate conflict. - It is the only language that is tied to an ideology, benevolent as it seems. Not even Arabic is strongly associated with Islamic fundamentalism any more than English is strongly associated with Christian fundamentalism (nor should they be). - The number of speakers varies widely since it pays for both critics and supporters to interpret the numbers in the ways that they see fit. - It has only received lukewarm support from the UN and is not an official language of any state. - Speakers of Esperanto are no longer persecuted for using their language (although this can change depending on the political situation.)
The contradiction of Esperanto is that for it to become an auxiliary language it'll likely need to be imposed. That seems to violate the spirit of freedom and goodwill that Esperanto-speakers like touting. The truth is that while some people learn it or want to learn it, others don't or won't. It's debatable whether enough people would learn Esperanto of their own volition in order to give the critical mass it needs to encourage otherwise disinterested people to learn it. All of the natural languages that have become lingua franca came about that way because of imposition and the prestige associated with military prowess or being allied to those in political control. I believe that Esperanto would be no different. While English today has continued to spread because of its dominance in pop culture and the media, we can't forget that the language was also spread through the efforts of worldwide colonization by English-speakers since the 16th century. Arabic became a regional lingua franca for North Africa and the Middle East because of the spread of Islam by missionaries and war. Russian spread to Siberia and Central Asia because of expansion and conquest by armies under Moscow's control. The kindly work of Orthodox missionaries wasn't the only reason for the spread of Russian as a lingua franca in Central and Northeastern Asia. You've even pointed out that large countries are more interested in supporting their natural languages than an artificial/constructed one. I say let the chips fall where they may. If Esperanto becomes a lingua franca, meh. If not, meh. We'll deal with it when we get there since language planning doesn't always meet its goals. "Ease" of language is also relative (you should know this since you study linguistics). Natural languages are difficult and easy as the same time. If someone were to create an auxiliary language based on English and French, I'd be the first to tell you that I wouldn't bother learning it unless it'd be required for a job even though I'd have a HUGE advantage in grasping and mastering it. What's the point in the current envrionment? I have no interest in this hypothetical language. If someone doesn't have a need for a language, then all that is left is interest. If the interest is missing, then one shouldn't expect him/her to learn it no matter how many studies exist showing how easy it seems. Right now I would rather spend more time working on "difficult" Slavonic languages than Esperanto, not because I don't believe in world peace, but because I'm just nuturing my interest in these languages and the culture of their speakers. Peace comes with realizing that we're all people and showing respect to others. It doesn't need an auxiliary language or any language for that matter. A kind deed (spoken or unspoken, written or unwritten) can go further than saying something in a common language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| remush Tetraglot Groupie Belgium remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6270 days ago 79 posts - 94 votes Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch Studies: German, Polish | Message 125 of 194 19 November 2007 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
So, you are qualified to speak about communism. Why do you think you are qualified to speak about Esperanto? Give us some credentials. If Esperanto was an ideology, it would probably be anarchism (in the good sense of the word). You cannot imagine how diverse are the opinions of the people who speak Esperanto. However most would probably agree that Esperanto is better as first foreign language (if not, as second or third). Note that your unassailable citadel suddenly crumbled, probably not that much from your personal efforts. Human history is made of such unexpected reversals. Many Russians and Poles are grateful to Esperanto, to have allowed them to go abroad and experience first hand what was the life of the people on the other side of the iron curtain, and tell back home what they saw. Did you believe then? There are other curtains that need to be torn in the mind of people. First hand experience: that's what most people are lacking. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Art Newbie Russian Federation Joined 6536 days ago 24 posts - 24 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 126 of 194 19 November 2007 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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2remush:
> First hand experience: that's what most people are lacking. I don't need to take a shot of cocaine to know that it is a bad thing, and for me it doesn't matter that a lot of junkies are tout it as an exceptional thing that can make the world a better place and make them feel better. I think you got the idea of 'the first hand experience'... Edited by Art on 19 November 2007 at 6:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| remush Tetraglot Groupie Belgium remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6270 days ago 79 posts - 94 votes Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch Studies: German, Polish | Message 127 of 194 19 November 2007 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Of course all your arguments are well known. Any language that is imposed (by force or by money) ends up being rejected, once people find they are in a master/slave relationship. What is difficult to understand is: why is a language, that is not imposed, already rejected, sometimes fiercely. The purpose of Esperanto is not world domination but fraternisation. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| remush Tetraglot Groupie Belgium remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6270 days ago 79 posts - 94 votes Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch Studies: German, Polish | Message 128 of 194 19 November 2007 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
No comment. You said it yourself. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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