My English teacher really hates Esperanto (Esperanto) Language Learning Forum

My English teacher really hates Esperanto
Tags: Esperanto \| English
Language Learning Forum : Esperanto

194 messages over 25 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 6 ... 24 25 Next >>

furyou_gaijin
Senior Member
Japan
Joined 6388 days ago
540 posts - 631 votes

Speaks: Latin*

Message 41 of 194

05 November 2007 at 2:36pm | IP Logged

remush wrote:

Thanks. It looks like the arguments are ideological. Pathetic!
Any more?

furyou_gaijin wrote:

remush wrote:

Out of curiosity, what are these other forums?
I like facts (professional bias).

The most recent one:

http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=787

Care to elaborate?!
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apparition
Octoglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6652 days ago
600 posts - 667 votes

Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), French, Arabic (Iraqi), Portuguese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Pashto

Message 42 of 194

05 November 2007 at 2:57pm | IP Logged

remush wrote:

I wrote http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgh4mq6j_11ddrv6g some time ago, and I try to update it regularly. It probably needs some reorganisation.
I personally like to link to Claude Piron whose contributions I find outstanding.
He is a language specialist. I'm am not.
Difficult to write better: http://claudepiron.free.fr/articles.htm

Well, then I retract my original gripe. :)
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lloydkirk
Diglot
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United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Russian

Message 43 of 194

05 November 2007 at 4:30pm | IP Logged

remush wrote:

My wife speaks Dutch. I speak French, and our English was just "school English" when we met. You can't do anything with that. I thought Esperanto would be worth a try.

lloydkirk wrote:

"I learned those I know out of necessity..."

You had to learn Esperanto?!

Assuming your wife is flemish, I think this is odd. I've never met anyone from Flanders who wasn't comfortable speaking in french, english, or both. In any case, to learn esperanto before english is utterly bizarre.
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remush
Tetraglot
Groupie
Belgium
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Joined 6270 days ago
79 posts - 94 votes

Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch
Studies: German, Polish

Message 44 of 194

06 November 2007 at 10:26am | IP Logged

You overlooked part of my answer: school knowledge.
This is far from sufficient to feel comfortable.
The sample you used to make your conclusion is probably too narrow or somehow biased, probably by the location where you met those people.
People living South of Belgium have the same opinion : why learn Dutch as all Flemish speak French. It's far from true.
In general it is not bizarre to learn Esperanto before or after English or French or Dutch or whatever. Most people in fact do it after, when it would certainly be more efficient to learn it before. Unfortunately, it was too late for us, so we lost a considerable amount of time struggling with counter-natural languages (read Claude Piron about that).
Again this thread is very "ideological".
Let's agree once for all, so you don't need to look for new arguments:
Esperanto is garbage, but those Esperanto-pigs are making fuel out of it, and when it starts selling, believe me, you'll adjust your engine.

lloydkirk wrote:

Edited by remush on 06 November 2007 at 10:29am
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leosmith
Senior Member
United States
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Tagalog

Message 45 of 194

07 November 2007 at 1:49am | IP Logged

remush wrote:

when it starts selling, believe me, you'll adjust your engine.

Can you explain this comment?

Edited by leosmith on 07 November 2007 at 1:50am
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remush
Tetraglot
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Belgium
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Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch
Studies: German, Polish

Message 46 of 194

07 November 2007 at 6:07am | IP Logged

I don't know how much explanation you need.
The analogy goes like this:
Some car engines need an adjustment to use non-fossil fuel (gas or liquid). You regain you investment after a while.
Of course you'll make that adjustment when the infrastructure is ready to refuel wherever you want.
Some planning is needed by the administration to put the infrastructure in place, give some incentives, like tax reduction to boost the demand for a while.

Esperanto is in the same position as this new type of fuel.
It is more cost-efficient (as second language) but there is no (or only weak) infrastructure.
The adjustment needed in our brain is minimal, but you must realize that an adjustment is needed to get rid of stupid prejudices ("Esperanto is garbage, worth nothing").

What must I still expand?

leosmith wrote:

remush wrote:

when it starts selling, believe me, you'll adjust your engine.

Can you explain this comment?

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virgule
Senior Member
Antarctica
Joined 6842 days ago
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Studies: Korean

Message 47 of 194

07 November 2007 at 6:56am | IP Logged

Remush, it won't happen. You may want to read up on concepts such as tipping points and informational cascades. You might find this enlightening. There are also studies on language use in particular, mostly in the context of places where many different languages are spoken. Basically, no-one usually has an incentive to invest into the infrastructure, as you call it in your analogy, to create the mass that makes the difference. There are many languages where you get a more immediate return on your investment in studies. There's a reason Esperanto hasn't really taken off since its inception.

I don't think anyone here wants to discourage you from using Esperanto, and your case demonstrated that it can have a use. However, you only had to coordinate the actions of two people, not millions.

It is important to see that many of the aspects you associate with Esperanto (ideological ones) are not as such tied to the language. What follows that ideological bits of the Esperanto movement are also found with people who don't speak Esperanto.
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remush
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Belgium
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Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch
Studies: German, Polish

Message 48 of 194

07 November 2007 at 10:09am | IP Logged

Again ideological... I don't like that either...

virgule wrote:

Remush, it won't happen.

I am not able to read crystal balls.

virgule wrote:

You may want to read up on concepts such as tipping points and informational cascades. You might find this enlightening.

We call that critical mass. Indeed, there is no critical mass yet in favour of Esperanto. It's true that English is about to have the same acceptance as French had not so long ago, before it was dethroned. What happened in Belgium is enlightening.

virgule wrote:

There are also studies on language use in particular, mostly in the context of places where many different languages are spoken.

You probably refer to studies showing what happens when there is no coordinating power. There are many cases of language reforms which were adopted by the population, example Indonesia and Israel to speak of big ones.

virgule wrote:

Basically, no-one usually has an incentive to invest into the infrastructure, as you call it in your analogy, to create the mass that makes the difference. There are many languages where you get a more immediate return on your investment in studies. There's a reason Esperanto hasn't really taken off since its inception.

Right. What do you think I did? Esperanto is an additional investment. However, studies have shown that you get a high return on investment if your goal is to learn other languages (particularly English or French).

virgule wrote:

[...] you only had to coordinate the actions of two people, not millions..

This is what is wrong with humanity:-): it accepts coordination through coercion, what Esperantists generally dislike, being mostly anarchists (in the positive sense).

virgule wrote:

It is important to see that many of the aspects you associate with Esperanto (ideological ones) are not as such tied to the language.

I have not much interest in those aspects, but it seems people in this forum have. I don't see that happening about other languages.

virgule wrote:

What follows that ideological bits of the Esperanto movement are also found with people who don't speak Esperanto.

Yes. Claude Hagège is a good example of that. When I first heard him, I thought he was ashamed to mention Esperanto as the obvious solution, not to put his reputation in danger. He is against Esperanto by principle, but all his arguments are the same as those of Esperantists. Strange case.

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