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Esperanto and Esperantist ideology | ||
Tags: Language Politics | Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6705 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 17 of 26 21 June 2012 at 10:59am | IP Logged | |||||
I have seen texts from Esperantists who thought that it would be nice if Esperanto was offered as a communication vehicle and study object for instance in the EU, which may or may not be realistic (but if so then only at the same level as other minority languages). I don't think even the most ardent esperantist ever believed that everybody should learn Esperanto or that anybody should be forced to learn it. Of course I can't garantee that there isn't some crank who at a certain time in history uttered such ideas, but those people are not representative in any way. However there ARE concrete claims from especially speakers of the big world languages that everybody ought to learn that particular world language, and it is also a fact that there are some countries (or selfgoverning entities) that in very concrete ways try to suppress minority languages. Just to mention one example from the first category: a member of HTLAL proposed in all earnest in the thread about French in Québec that those québecqois should drop French and adopt English - it would much better for themselves. And from the same corner of the word: as far as I know there are rules (or even laws) governing the use of English in Québec. There may or may not be valid reasons for this, but that's not the point - the point is that there are such rules. So there is absolut no danger from the Esperantists (who are as peripheral as stamp collectors and tuba players and much less influental in world politics than golf players and soccer fans), and if you can find somebody who has aired some wild ideas about world hegemony you can be assured that they don't represent the movement as a whole. The real danger lurks from those who want to push minor languages out of business in favor of some major language - which either could be a world language or the dominant language or dialect in a particular country. Edited by Iversen on 20 September 2013 at 6:40pm 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| a3 Triglot Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 5258 days ago 273 posts - 370 votes Speaks: Bulgarian*, English, Russian Studies: Portuguese, German, Italian, Spanish, Norwegian, Finnish | Message 18 of 26 21 June 2012 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
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We all know about big languages supressing minority ones and promoting themselves - no need to mention that.
I cant cite because I cant remember where I read that. Isnt this the very purpose esperanto was created anyway - to be an international language? I might have been a bit ultimate in my saying, but still as far as I know there are organisations (or only people?) who wish or try to promote teaching of esperanto so it can become lingua franca. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Michael K. Senior Member United States Joined 5731 days ago 568 posts - 886 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Esperanto | Message 19 of 26 21 June 2012 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Yes, Esperanto is designed to be a bridge language so people can communicate if they don't have a language in common.
I think we already discussed that while there are some Esperantists who want to make Esperanto the world's second language, most Esperantists don't agree with that, although I'm sure most Esperantists want more people to learn Esperanto. To be honest, the idea that Esperanto will become the world's lingua franca instead of English or some other widespread natural language seems a bit flaky, so I doubt it would get much support.To me, it seems most Esperantists try to use how easy the language is to learn and how dynamic the community is to promote Esperanto. You are right that some Esperanto proponents are a little over the top, like enthusiastic supporters of anything else. That said, I don't think the flakiness of the lunatic fringe is enough to turn people off to Esperanto. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Colin R. Diglot Newbie Australia Joined 4753 days ago 6 posts - 11 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto | Message 20 of 26 05 August 2013 at 11:52am | IP Logged | |||||
I agree that the fact Esperanto was intended to be international is not a good argument. After all, Esperanto is not the only language "made to be an international one". The languages Volapuk, Ido, and Interlingua were created with a similar goal in mind, and they are not the only ones, just the best known.
Ease of learning is a good argument in favor of Esperanto. An even better argument is the combination of ease of learning and flexibility. A language with a strictly limited vocabulary might be easier to learn, but this would probably be at the cost of not being be able to say as much in it. Existence of an active worldwide community of users is an important argument as well. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5347 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 21 of 26 03 October 2013 at 2:11am | IP Logged | |||||
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There is an interesting and very entertaining reference to Esperanto in the form of a character in the novel Niebla by Miguel de Unamuno, a great piece of literature originally published in 1914. I think the Esperantists of this forum would find it endearing.
About the language itself, why invent a language for no reason at all? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7207 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 22 of 26 03 October 2013 at 6:49am | IP Logged | |||||
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There is also a segment of the Esperantist intelligentsia that is aware that there is another group of Esperantists who don't get too much past the training wheel stage. For the Esperantist elite, selling Esperanto on the "easy" angle, may be a disservice to potential Esperantists because language learning in itself is inherently difficult, compared to say riding a bicycle. In terms of hours to reach a certain level, Esperanto is much easier than other national languages, but it isn't effortless to get to a C2 level, nor even to conversational fluency.
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| dmaddock1 Senior Member United States Joined 5435 days ago 174 posts - 426 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Esperanto, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 23 of 26 03 October 2013 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I read to page 3 before realizing this was an old thread, reanimated. :-) A few thoughts:
1. Some of the old posts that mention "anarchist" Esperantists might be thinking of Eugene Lanti, the founder of SAT. He certainly was very political and influential in the Esperanto movement, but by no means spoke for all Esperantists any more than a prominent American intellectual speaks for all Americans. If you learn Esperanto, you can read more about him in Vivo de Lanti. He's a fascinating character. 2. Zamenhof certainly was cosmopolitan (in the literal meaning of the word) and that idea permeates Esperanto. I suppose one need not subscribe to this view to know Esperanto, although that seems to me a rather needlessly theoretical clarification. But, even if someone only cares from a conlang standpoint, Esperanto is certainly one of the largest, most successful conlang projects ever (if not the most), and it would be folly to avoid studying it for fear of ideology, etc. 3. The idea that Esperantists are generally "leftists" has to be tied in with the general acceptance of multiculturalism in the Esperanto movement. As has been implied earlier, "rightists" interested in Esperanto are likely to be of the "libertarian" variety, it seems to me. I think this is because, in general, one's attitude toward Esperanto is likely to be determined by how "socially left" one is, not how "economically left". At least in the US, there are a lot of people who have "leftist" opinions on social issues, but not monetary issues. Some of those folks call themselves libertarians, but a lot do not. I doubt many "socially conservative" people will want to learn Esperanto. I consider myself libertarian and learned Esperanto. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5322 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 24 of 26 04 October 2013 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
They might not be dangerous, but, IMHO, Finvenkists are actually one of the major reasons why not more people give Esperanto a chance. They're basically ruining it for all other Esperantists with their constant talk about Fina Venko. The weird part is that many Finvenkists are native English speakers. Maybe they feel somwhat bad about the dominance of English as a world language. BTW, the Economist recently published an interesting article on Esperanto. Edited by Doitsujin on 04 October 2013 at 3:59pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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