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Three rules for improving listening | ||
Tags: Listening | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| BobbyE Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5235 days ago 226 posts - 331 votes  Speaks: English*, Mandarin | Message 57 of 105 08 December 2013 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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You say Iverson is careless for letting reading get a head of listening, but I think that
is totally wrong. Choosing an approach that you enjoy and that will keep you going is not careless, I think instead it is carefree. Being carefree and enjoying the language is actually a really good thing to have, and it is way better for learning than being over-concerned about if your method is right. Edited by BobbyE on 08 December 2013 at 12:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6585 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 58 of 105 08 December 2013 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As I said, it depends on your priorities, and I certainly wasn't criticizing Iversen as his approach clearly works for him. I'll just never get tired of repeating that it's not an inevitable situation (when your listening lags behind), and it's not very desirable if you can avoid it.
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| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4695 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 59 of 105 08 December 2013 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
I don't know, it depends on your goals. For me listening is important, but much more in 1-on-1 situations than in any other situation, because I barely ever listen to the radio for example. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5250 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 60 of 105 08 December 2013 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well said, Serpent! I think some of us as experienced language learners tend to forget what it is like for someone who hasn't learned their first second language yet. It can be very difficult to put yourself in their shoes. Also, first time learners usually don't clearly state their goals. Do they want to speak, listen or just read, or do they want to get better at all facets of the language? My assumption is usually the latter. This response is not intended for experienced learners, or people whose priority is not listening comprehension. Typical Advice Center question on HTLAL: "I'd like to learn 'X', how do I start? (my assumption- learner wants to learn all facets of the language.) Me: "Use a course (or two) but also start listening as soon as you can and start reading as soon as possible (obviously- comprehensible input- meaning audio with text, preferably bilingual). Make this a part of your learning from the start at the same time as you use your course. Pick an audio, with a transcript, ideally a bilingual transcript or a subject you are familiar with. Pick a text and work with it (ideally a bilingual text) and try to decipher it a sentence at a time, then a paragraph at a time. It might take weeks to get through it. At the same time, continue with your course. In other words: don't just depend on a course and anki alone, use multiple resources at the same time. Doing so, means that your course becomes a way to solve problems with what you are seeing, hearing and speaking, and eventually less about teaching you "X" from scratch. Others, one post later: "Get Assimil". Seconded in next post. New poster: "Also use "Teach Yourself X". New Poster: "Anki is great for learning vocabulary!" Learner: "OK, I'll use Assimil, TY and Anki". Implied: "I won't be going outside this box." Problem solved- Me: eye roll. Me: "Good, but you should also include listening to native audio, reading native text and speaking before you are 'ready'. This can be done by..." (doing this is not mutually exclusive with using a course and Anki) Serpent: You should try Lyrics Training and Gloss as well. They're both great ways to practice and work on both listening comprehension and reading. Learner: Nothing, now convinced that courses and anki are the solution. More than one person has recommended them (neglecting to mention the fact that they themselves actually did more than just use the course and anki- because they don't consider reading, watching TV or listening to be "study"). Result: Learner believes an hour a day with courses and Anki alone will lead them to the promised land. In a box is better than out of the box. Inside the box is easier. "The course and anki reps will teach me. Listening to native speech is hard. There's no one to hold my hand. I'll have to find audio myself. I'll have to take notes and work on the audio, maybe even have to listen to the same audio multiple times more. Worse yet, I might have to talk to people! What would I say? How would I understand what they say? I get discouraged and quit." Learner after using mostly courses: "Why can't I understand TV, or movies, native conversation or podcasts?" -Me: eye roll, again. I give up. If you want to get better at listening, practice listening. Give it at least the same amount of effort (if not more) that you give to your course and anki. If you fail the first time, don't give up. Keep at it until you get better. Even if that means listening over and over again to the same stretch of audio. Like all exercise, the more you practice listening, actively, the better you will be, but it takes time. Edited by iguanamon on 08 December 2013 at 4:46pm 9 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6585 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 61 of 105 08 December 2013 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Haha this is so accurate! Reminds me on the dialogues of Plato ;)
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4695 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 62 of 105 08 December 2013 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I think that's mostly wanting the silver bullet to solve everything. We don't drink
magic potions in order to speak Spanish. We just speak whatever we think is Spanish and then what comes out is something quite like, but not entirely Spanish. The degree to which this is true varies. To learn a language isn't to open a book and read its grammar. Listening is a part of language learning (and I find it the hardest and the most boring one to train). To learn a language you need all of its facets in some distribution. In what distribution you use them exactly depends on your goals - and for me spoken and written interaction are a great part of the distribution. This means I need pretty good overall skills. Listening tends to be the lagger but I a) accept it as part of my methodology and b) I find that it is something you eventually overcome with lots of practice. I usually have a sort of "aha" moment somewhere where languages more or less click into place after sustained effort. It usually entrains a lot of effort, focusing, and continuous exposure to the sounds of the language. I also find that training your pronunciation is endlessly important in order to understand the other person. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6585 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 63 of 105 08 December 2013 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As we say here, waiting and chasing are the worst things in the world. I also hated listening before I discovered there were better resources than news and textbook audio. Believe it or not, it's much more enjoyable when you're not chasing and trying to bite your own tail.
And it helps your speaking greatly. When I was learning Finnish, I learned to read/write/think first, then I listened to the Da Vinci Code audiobook on 17 CD's, always following the written text. Then I shadowed Assimil. This whole "activation"/"transferring" took about a year - okay, that was also my final year at school, but still I was much more motivated for Finnish than for anything else. I expected to follow a similar route with other languages, but thanks to football and LR I didn't find it necessary. It was just so much better to do LR early and do it with L1 written text. Less effort, more joy. Edited by Serpent on 08 December 2013 at 6:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4695 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 64 of 105 08 December 2013 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
It usually takes me a few months to activate. So no, I'm not that bothered, actually. Actually, the languages where it took longest to activate were French and Russian - and for French it became a lot better after two months of immersion (mostly because I had the basic grammar down but needed to see it in context). A year is a pretty long time for me to take to activate a language, and that usually only happens if I am very non- diligent about using it or if it is the first new language of a certain new family where I also encounter lots of unknown vocab at the same time. I.e. Russian and Korean (and French at the time). I find that vocabulary is much more important, as well as a sense of the flow, melody and pronunciation of that language. It really helps when listening to understand how you have to make the language flow. I barely ever had trouble learning to understand Swedish or German for example. Pronunciation is a must, else you cannot guess how a certain word is pronounced.
I'm not saying don't use LR. I use LR as well. But for picking up vocab I tend to just read, especially if the pronunciation of certain words is easy to guess from the orthography (f. ex. I don't care if it's written in Romanian... it's easy to guess). What you're saying is use sources that appeal to you - I do the same thing, I can't tell you how many football interviews I've watched in Spanish lately :D But I find LR costs too much time so I tend to just relax with a book... quicker, easier, and I still retain shittonnes of vocabulary. I also do way more speaking and interaction than you do, and for me that's a source of listening as well. I find that much less stressful than a radio (and I also enjoy talking to people more). Although I do occasionally listen to, say, the Romanian radio and then I understand like 80%. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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