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Tags: TellMeMore | Fluenz | Linguaphone | Flash cards | Michel Thomas | Self-Study | Spaced Repetition (SRS) | Diploma/Certificate | Study Plan | Fluency | Dutch | Pimsleur | FSI | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | Assimil | French | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4901 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 145 of 451 28 June 2014 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I get your frustration with flashcards. A long time ago, I thought the key to learning a language was to learn a ton of vocab. And back then I thought 1000 words was a ton. I briefly went the other way when I started learning French; I thought I would just pick up words by regular contact and assimilation. But when I started to read A1 readers and had to look up 5-10 words a page, I got my frequency dictionary. I tried sentences as well for a while, but they were too time-consuming to enter, and especially to learn (did I get one little word in the sentence wrong? Boom, fail that sucker!)
I fully understand the concept behind those who oppose learning words in isolation. If they looked at me studying nothing but vocab all those years ago, I fit their description. But if you are studying words from texts you are using, or high-frequency words that are likely to come up anywhere, then by reading and watching, you're actually not learning words in isolation. I think people who argue against learning isolated words (as well as those who insist on monolingual flashcards) usually create a straw-man argument to prove their case. My point is that if you combine traditional vocab study with a lot of native material, then you do meet those words in context, and therefore the standard objections are overcome. A small diet of bilingual, single word flashcards is a very helpful part of a wider study of a language. For me, not a day goes by that I don't hear or read a new word I just learnt recently, or learn a word I have recently heard or read. I think that is miles better than trying to learn examples at the time of learning the word, and is much easier for me to do. I have one suggestion which might help you to get over your current frustration: try not to enter every unknown word, but just words you are sure you have seen before. Sometimes you have to live by Elsa's philosophy: Keep it simple yo, keep it real bro, if it's no fun Joe, Just let it go. Edited by Jeffers on 28 June 2014 at 4:55pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 146 of 451 29 June 2014 at 7:14am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Hi Luke, Hi Jeffers, Tnx for the reply guys. Yeah I am using words from context. I never add random words or words/word lists from other sources. All my entered words are words I have encountered during studying, reading, watching, courses, audio etc. So, yeah they are in context. It's just too slow to put in examples, and at this stage I've accepted that. Sometimes extra clarity is required in which case I will provide an example or two, but generally to keep getting anywhere in whatever course etc then I won't add examples. Jeffers you make a good point in that it isn't really isolation if i'm coming across these words during my French learning activities, which I am. I remember emk using a method in which he would cut and paste a phrase in which he found the word in question, or cut and paste examples from an easily accessible dictionary. This doesn't really work for me doing bilingual cards, which I do want to stick with, but nonetheless it's a method that would work really well for some. Copying and pasting I have tried with both FR and EN translations out of dictionaries but it's still too cumbersome and slow using my platform (iPhone, entry of cards via BT keyboard) even though I can easily select whole sentences, just the mere editing and copying and pasting just messes with my flow too much. Already entering flashcards is enough interruption.
This I do do, to an extent. The ration of courses vs native material probably isn't ideal as per most ppl's views on my study patterns. However with so many courses I want to get through this is my preferred way. I'm still exposing myself to native material nevertheless.
Single word flashcards are nice but not really always an option for me. For example I wrote in the definition of 'inscrire' = to engrave, to inscribe. On the FR side I write this [clarification: graver] so that I know it's about engraving. I do this because I came across another inscrire = to write down, to note down, so I wrote [clarification: ecrire: detail, nom, adresse, rendez-vous, chiffre]. This kind of clarification doesn't take long for me and saves me having one card with a billion different meanings. I decided in a previous session of flashcard frustration that one definition per card would suffice unless meaning was very close in which case I'd write them in together ie Coquillage = shell, shellfish. Two different meanings but similar enough to group together. So my cards are simple-ish. For the record due to numerous keyboard shortcuts I don't always type out full words that I would often type. eg for "[clarification:" I simply type "[cla" and the rest of the word appears. "[sub" = [substantif] "[adj" = adjectif (these I add to cards in which nouns are adjectives might be confused). so yeah I am about making things simple but also clear. Examples are too slow, so after a trial I'm ditching them for the most part.
This probably doesn't happen as often as it should for me. But I'm getting there :)
I've challenged myself with this before. Like emk said, only enter words you come across frequently that you still don't know the meaning of. That's fine, when I read extensively I enter a word for each page or 2 despite maybe not knowing 10 words. But when it comes to study I feel compelled to enter every word. This way I've got EVERYTHING out of the course and when I'm done with it, and I can move on knowing I have a nice little neat FC deck in my phone that encompasses every word that I have been exposed to in my courses. I read an article once which spoke about how much we retain from courses and I noticed that VERY RARELY do we actually learn 100% of vocab and grammar from courses, in fact we continue to lose that knowledge immediately following the course unless we review it. So I don't want to think that if I"ve done 10 courses I have only got 80% out of it. I want to ensure I learn what is there to be learned and move on to the next one. I'm a perfectionist that can't let go. As for not writing every word, most ppl have an active vocab of 20,000 words tops, surely with with almost 8,000 words in my FC deck i'm well on the way to having entered most common words and should in theory as I continue find i'm entering less and less 'new words' (specialized vocab being the exception of course).... Anyway thanks guys for your pointers here. I'm still frustrated and I know others with 'better' methods out there can see that i'm perhaps doing things 'all wrong'. This method seems to work for me, and I can't seem to let go of it, so i'm basically beating my head against a brickwall. Only this morning I watched a short music clip in French graded 1 out of 5 in difficulty, the accent was not tricky and yet i was left thinking wtf! this should be easy! it made little sense, and again I think the problem is insufficient native material exposure and being a perfectionist that must know every word. Once i'm done with my audio programs in around a few months to six months I think i'll move on to listening to more native audio during commutes. Thanks again :) Much love, An Angry Bird 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Sizen Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4331 days ago 165 posts - 347 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Catalan, Spanish, Japanese, Ukrainian, German | Message 147 of 451 29 June 2014 at 8:42am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I've been playing around with new methods for vocab acquisition lately. As I usually
use Anki for a few months, then drop it. The only time I've noticed a marked improvement in my French after using Anki was when I entered 800+ words using active and passive cards and while reading French for anywhere between 2-8 hours a day for a month. Yikes. Doesn't sound super efficient, but my vocab grew like no tomorrow. Anyway, I recently listened to an episode of the language is culture podcast where Luca Lampariello talks about his experiences with language learning. Regarding vocabulary, he said that he likes to write things that catch his attention down and to revisit them later when you have time. He then writes the word and it's definition (in his native language) and a few example sentences using the word (in the target language). I don't know if he reviews these at a later date, but it's probably not a bad idea. Point of the story: I tried this and really enjoyed it. In fact, some of the expressions I wrote down have just stuck without me needing to review them. I did give the experiment a bit of my own personal flare though and created some sentences of my own with the expressions I liked best. All in all, it took me about 2-3 minutes per word/expression and I feel like they've entered my active vocabulary much faster than with Anki. Another method I recently heard of comes from Anthony Lauder, the man himself. Look up his "Spiral method" videos on youtube if your interested. Basically, he plays with words that intrigue him and explores areas of vocabulary that he feels necessary. I've been finding lately that combing techniques like these with Anki (different words for each technique, that is) has been helping me enjoy learning vocabulary a lot more. I don't feel like I'm bound to Anki and I get to have a little fun as well. I know I have more fun doing this than Anki all the time. The only problem is that it's much less time efficient. I don't know if this is any help to you, but I figure it might reduce the number of cards going into your Anki deck at the very least. :) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 148 of 451 29 June 2014 at 8:58am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
This I am still struggling with. I can't seem to let go. When reading it's fine, i'm happen to let go of many words and look up say 1 a page or every 2nd page. While doing course work I can't not enter unknown words, since the very nature of a course is to learn learn and learn some more. Reading often involves expansive exposure to many words and that's part of the aim behind extensive reading I guess. I'm not necessarily asking for help again emk, just thought I'd highlight this issue in case you feel like parroting yourself and having me say I can't do what you do again (stubborn as a mule). Jeffers suggested the the same (not entering every word) I might add. Perhaps I'm just genuinely frustrated with slow progress lately. Man if I had of known learning a language was such a massive undertaking I would've done it properly from the start well over a decade ago.... or would I? Ironic, the title of my log. I certainly did procrastinate, and now I'm certainly getting over it, shame I didn't get over it sooner (hints of regret there indeed). Word up, for realz 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 149 of 451 29 June 2014 at 9:18am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
This sounds like a variation on what emk does at times. I"m not really saying that for any particular reason but merely noting that your method could be similar to his. Perhaps this vouches for it's effectiveness in a way. But that's a big maybe as 2 ppl don't generally start a revolution if you know what I mean. However that's not to say it isn't a great method.
I really appreciate your sharing here Sizen. However I think the main issue is speed. I can enter a new single word card in under ten seconds. A word that requires a bit more clarifcation may take a minute, to two mins maximum (usually a minute). What I was liking for helping me out with context was to enter 2 or three example sentences and their translations but this was taking too long even if copying them straight out of dictionary. Just for the record I do touch type, so i'm not tapping away looking for letters either. So at a guess two and half to 4 minutes per card with the examples. I didn't time these at all, so they are complete estimations. Thing is I like the context idea with the examples that I was doing they just take TOO DAMNED LONG! And it's a shame. Jeffers did say that I am likely to be coming across these words in context anyway, yes true. HOwever with examples it reinforces contextual use with some variation (ie two to three examples) which in my opinion makes new words sink in a bit better in their 'natural' surroundings. edit: I think i'm relatively clear with myself that when doing my courses I do want to continue entering all new words even obvious ones (if I know them well when reviewing I'll flick them over as 'known' with one 'flick' - I use flashcards deluxe which works differently that Anki- a swipe sideways, you know a card, a swipe up you DEFINITELY know it which means it will reappear later than normal for re-review), but what I was getting frustrated with was simply the speed at entering them when including the examples, this is why i ditched them. PM Tnx again Sizen :) Edited by PeterMollenburg on 29 June 2014 at 9:22am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4901 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 150 of 451 29 June 2014 at 10:58am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Actually, this is exactly what I mean by a single word flashcard. I mean focusing on one word in French, which usually means 2-3 words on the English side. Clarificaitons on the French side still fit in the broad concept, which is that each card is about 1 word in your target language. The only thing I don't like is then adding example sentences, because that increases the review time needed. As I mentioned, I get more than enough example sentences when I read.
There's nothing wrong with that. I rarely enter any words from my courses for two reasons: 1. I revise and revise the courses so much that I pretty much know all the words, 2. I learn my vocab from a frequency book so it will be rare that a word will come up in a course that's not in my deck. But your method is more thorough, and will result in a much wider vocabulary base once you finish your courses.
I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with your method, or that there are 'better' methods out there. But I do have a suggestion which might help with listening comprehension. You mentioned that you have some easy readers with audio? What I do is to listen to the audio (while commuting/walking/biking) 2 or 3 before looking at the text. The first time I'm trying to pick out words and just figure out what it's about. With successive listening I'm getting more of the story. Then I read the text. In these cases, since they're short texts, I usually do look up every unknown word. Later, if the story was interesting enough, I will listen while reading, listen on its own or read it on its own several times. I think my "audio first reading" method of tackling books is great for building up listening comprehension. I don't think it will work well with a longer book (because so many repititions will take too long), but I used it with Le Petit Nicolas and really enjoyed it. It is a bit frustrating when you listen to something that should be easy, and you don't catch much. But it is really encouraging to listen to it again, when you catch a lot more, and you realize that it's not so bad after all. In a way my "audio first reading" method is a bit like taking how you're supposed to work through an Assimil lesson, but with a book + audio. The switching of methods (listening, reading, l+r) and the revisiting of the same text really help you to assimilate it, and build fluency in both listening and reading. One more point: I have seen people write that once they understand most of a text, they don't bother to read it again. I think that once you understand most of a text, that's the most important time to read it again. And again. Because at that point you are assimilating structures rather than wondering about meaning. Obviously, this assumes you can find books interesting enough to read several times. Or you have to be willing to re-read something because you know it will benefit your language skills. Anyway, sorry for going on and on. I am working through my philosophy (or philosophies) or language learning while discussing with you. In these past few months you have had an influence on my language learning; mainly reminding me on a forum of successful native material addicts, that course addiction is fun and effective too! EDIT: I've decided calling my method "listen first" sounds too much like the "silent period" method. I'm going to call it "audio first reading". I've edited my post to change that. Edited by Jeffers on 29 June 2014 at 2:29pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 151 of 451 29 June 2014 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Awesome, takes a calm deep breath
If I ever finish them! But silliness aside, tnx Jeffers :) It's really nice to have some positive feedback that what I'm doing is ok, and that skipping the example sentences makes sense.
Tnx Jeffers. I do believe your audio book listen first approach is smart. I will certainly consider putting it to use while walking the dog or riding my bike on a not so windy day away from traffic. Although many of my audio books require interaction, ie page turning and the ones that don't are very lengthy such as Harry Potter which i'm yet to burn to cd and transfer to my listening device aka mon portable. I'm not writting the method off, just not sure it will work for me... aha! what I could do while walking the dog is listen to Yabla video clips which are downloaded to my portable (Yabla is where I came across the easy but not understood clip), then later when it comes time to do a Yabla session at my desk with the laptop I shall have my ears piqued for those words I discovered on my walks :) All in all as I said Jeffers it's a sigh of relief to get some positive feedback. I'll continue with the FC's as I don't mind doing them it was just my input method as discussed. I shall do away with the examples 9 out of 10 times in which such examples are not necessary for clarity. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 152 of 451 01 July 2014 at 4:54am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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June & half year summary
------------------------------- Dutch June total: 22hrs 10min (courses only) June average: 44 min Average since starting in March: 35 min Flaschards entered since start in March: 2128 ---------- VocabuLearn Level 1 completed! So completed means that I systematically went over all the vocablulary, entered every word into my flashcard deck and didn't move on with any page until I knew the page NL- EN, EN-NL and via the audio. To demonstrate how effective I feel I have learned these words, if i were to return and go right back through the VocabuLearn level 1 again now I think i'd get at least 95% of the words correct in both directions. Although I must mention these words were NOT learned from scratch, I already knew them but had 'temporarily forgotten them' from a few years back. In Hugo Dutch in 3 Months I'm up to the last conversation in week 12 which is the last week of the book. I've not found this course overly complicated at all except for some of the technical grammar rules and the last lesson two lessons (weeks 11 & 12) at least I have found trickier than the others. Although I'm at the end of the course I don't foresee finishing it very quickly as I will do the revision exercises and then the reading texts- they will take a lot of time as I don't want to just read it, but learn all the words, which is well above the level of the rest of the course. ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------- French Half ear total: 526hrs,28min Half year average: 2hrs,55min Flaschards created: 7963 SC watching: 55hrs,8min SC pages: 468 ------------------ June month total: 86hrs,40min June daily average: 2hrs,53min ------------------ June breakdown: Audio only courses: 28hrs,51min Reading: 13hrs,22min Watching: 13hrs,5min Flashcard reviews: 12hrs,14min Courses: 11hrs,23min ------------------ Superchallenge (June): Watching: 11hrs,45min Pages read: 92 ------------------ Flashcards: This is the first month I counted my flashcard study time. Although I have now gone back and readjusted the other months and year total. I was able to go back and do that fairly accurately as practically every hour of coursework/reading I did 10 min of FC study. So I readjusted all those stats. I need a decent spreadsheet app as I'm calculating this all myself. I don't want to use a spreadsheet computer-based program as I can't enter things on the go easily and have to write down audio study times to enter them later anyway in a computer anyway. Audio: I was able to do a lot of audio (Pimsleur Level III) in June as I was doing a fill in job for someone else in which I was doing a lot of driving. So, in June I managed to get through lessons 1-30 but I'm yet to do the reading exercises, so I haven't finished the course yet despite completing the audio component. To be honest I'm still finding it relatively easy. But better doing this and working twds completing all my audio courses than not, i'm not about to listen to Australian radio, and i'm not ready for French radio just yet. Courses: So currently I'm up to Unit 11 of Colloquial French. I'm not writing anything down, as there's no point in my opinion, i'll be here for 10 yrs if I write for each and every activity I come across in courses. Thus I've made it a point to only write when I've not covered the material before (I've completed Colloquial French a handful of years ago), or when I have little understanding of the concept or the exercises are trickier- ie it's not something I've covered (much) before or am not fully confident in. Watching: Enjoying Un village français... Reading: Mainly reading "Vivre sans vaccins" and enjoying it actually. I have said this before it's realtively easy to read despite the subject matter, and of course what helps is i'm interested in the subject matter, which is somewhat related to my work as well. I read each page twice, choosing one word to enter per page (one word per page read twice). Once I've finished a chapter, I then return to the start at the chapter and do the same before moving to the next chapter. Thus I read each page 4 times. Who knows I might go through the whole book again at some point too, prob not directly following as I do believe it's a good thing to partially forget some vocab (after reinforcing it) and then reinforcing it again. I'm also extremly slowly reading articles from my French audio (&text) magazines. This is slowww, but still useful. Discrepancies Note that reading and watching between the SC and month totals don't match up because... Often I would use Yabla & sometimes watch a DVD pausing often. For example I may record that I have been watching something for an hour under my "watching" stats but only get 30 min into the DVD because of all the pausing, thus only 30min is tweeted to the Super Challenge bot. A similar thing happens with my reading- particularly intensive reading in which I could read 3/4 of a page of one French magazine which I feel is not worth adding to the SC stats, but I will write down the time i've studied under my own "Reading" time. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------- ------------------------------------------------------------ -------- COURSES I have added to this list some more courses which weren't previously listed to show which ones I have completed so far. I also added some that were missing and one more which I bought: La prononciation française de vrai (yep I decided it was worth adding to my list- pls don't mention any more courses within an arms length of me and my entries!) *****designates what I'm currently doing***** ---- NIVEAU DÉBUTANT First Thousand Words in French Usborne Fr Dictionary for Beginners Michel Thomas Total French Michel Thomas Perfect French Michel Thomas Masterclass French Pimsleur French I Fluenz French 1 Pimsleur French II French all talk - Linguaphone Learn French with Paul Noble Rocket French Premium Fluenz French 2 Hugo French in 3 Months FSI niveau 1 *****Pimsleur French III***** *****Colloquial French***** *****Rocket French Premium Plus***** Rocket French Platinum Pimsleur French IV Bien-dire: Guide de pronciation Bien-dire: Bon appétit (A2-B1) Bien-dire: Fr. Expressions (B1-B2) TY Get Started in French Living Language 1 Fluenz French 3 TY Complete French FR Learn Easy Way JacquesBoucher Living Language 2 Tell Me More FSI niveau 2 Assimil NFWE TY Perfect Your French French Vocabulary Lists Fluenz French 4 Living Language 3 La prononc. française pour de vrai Production écrite B1/B2 FIA partie 1 NIVEAU MOYEN Conv Fr 20 Lessons Cortina Method Hugo French Advanced FSI niveau 3 Bien-dire: C'est la vie en Fr. (B2-C1) Fluenz French 5 Assimil Using French Colloquial French 2 Bien-dire: Expr'ns courantes (B2-C1) Prép. à l'examen du DELF B2 Réussir le DELF B2 Activités pour le CECR niv. B2 M Durand's Words, Phrases & Sent's FIA partie 2 (3ème édition) NIVEAU SUPÉRIEUR Tell Me More (Business/advanced) FSI niveau 4 Barron's Mastering French Vocab. Assimil Business French Bien-dire: Conv. entre amis (C1-C2) Ultimate French Review & Practise Ultimate FR Verb Review & Practise Street French 1 Street French 2 French Verb Mastery Practice m. Perfect Adv Fr Grammar Vis-à-vis Production écrite niveaux C1/C2 Réussir le DALF C1 et C2 FIA partie 1 & 2 Edited by PeterMollenburg on 01 July 2014 at 5:17am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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