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February 6 Week Challenge | ||
Tags: 6 Weeks Challenge (6WC) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6150 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 81 of 93 02 March 2014 at 2:19am | IP Logged | ||
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Would it be totally inappropriate to point out right now that because I've passively listened to hours of Mongolian music over the years, I can sing entire songs in that language, despite not speaking a word of Mongolian? Similar situation with Arabic. But under no circumstances would I ever say that I was studying Mongolian or Arabic by listening to music in those languages. I don't care how often you listen to music in another language, unless you make an active, focused effort to study the actual language in the song, I would not consider that study. Simply having music in Japanese playing at one's workplace is not the same as studying Japanese. Period.
And to be clear, I'm not attacking the validity of using music as a study method at all. I have used it myself and found it to be very effective when done properly. But crucially, it needs to be your intention and sole focus whilst you are doing it. You cannot be listening to foreign language music and working on something else at the same time and still count that time -- not even half of it -- as true study time. Exposure time, sure, but simply being exposed is not studying. EDIT: Looking back on this post it now seems rather harsh. I apologize for any excessive harshness in my tone, but I stick by what I said regarding counting passive listening as study time. Edited by ellasevia on 02 March 2014 at 3:02am 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6605 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 82 of 93 02 March 2014 at 5:56am | IP Logged | ||
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Now imagine you started learning Mongolian. You'll see that you already know many words and forms - you'll just need to attach meaning to them. The language will seem far less alien than to anyone who's really starting from scratch. Maybe even Chung.
And really, exposure is not study time? Nobody told me that when I registered almost 37 hours of immersion over a 10-day trip to Poland in May 2012, counting any miscellaneous contact with the language that is too vague to tag. If immersion is what makes people go abroad to study languages, how come it's useless? More like priceless. Being surrounded by the language. Having it buzzing in your head. Omnomnom. The mindset is important, yes. This also applies to actually paying attention to what enters your ears and not treating it as noise. Besides, tons of people don't have much time to sit down at home and study. Cristina for example. Back to what was said on the previous page, no, it's not that I feel like native materials are bashed (though they are). It's more about the fact that to me everything I do counts as learning. My whole life is devoted to language learning. I watched a football match in Greek once and counted it. Because I needed that match: prior to those 90 min Greek sounded exactly like Spanish to me, and after that it no longer did. If this isn't language learning, then I don't know what is. Let me also remind you that you can count #Linguistics. The tag is the same as for #Multilingual learning. But now I'll leave you with this link to an article started by me. And I'll leave this thread. I don't like talking behind people's backs and I need to do something about my woeful Romanian stats. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6150 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 83 of 93 02 March 2014 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | ||
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Despite your objection, yes, I'd still maintain that plain exposure to a language is not the same as studying it. However, I never for a second claimed that exposure/immersion is useless. I learned Spanish (and a good deal of Croatian and Greek) almost entirely through immersion, so I'd be the last to say that it is useless in producing real language skills. However, if you were to ask me how I studied Spanish, my response would be that I didn't study it; I learned it through immersion.
Now the two can overlap, of course. You can be immersed in a language and also study it, or use the immersion as a study tool. But for that to be true, I believe you need to be consciously focused on and actively engaged with the language, which isn't normally possible all the time. That's why I would object to the idea of someone living abroad who counts 12+ hours per day as language study solely on the basis of the fact that they are "immersed" in the language. If this hypothetical person indeed manages to focus intently on all the language that surrounds them 100% of the time, then I would be extremely impressed, but otherwise it should not be allowed to count towards active study time. I won't deny that listening to music, even passive listening, is helpful for learning a language in the same way that living abroad in an immersion environment is helpful. As you said before, it helps immensely in our eventual acquisition of the target language. But I don't think that passive listening is the same as studying, at least not the way we're defining it. True, it is "priceless" exposure to a language, but as I've already stated, I don't believe that mere exposure can be considered to be on the same level as active study. That's why we have rules for how to count time spent on movies/TV/music/etc. in the first place, because those activities, unless they are completely focused, must be treated differently than other forms of study. Maybe we simply disagree on the basis of what we should label as "study," or even where we'd personally draw the line between "active" and "passive" listening. It seems likely that our disagreement is primarily semantic. Basically, I'm stating that according to my understanding of the words, there is a difference in meaning between studying and learning. I believe that "active" listening is a viable study technique, but "passive" listening (and exposure/immersion in general) is not. It is, however, an excellent learning technique. I simply do not think that studying and learning are inherently the same thing. Edited by ellasevia on 02 March 2014 at 12:55pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5342 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 84 of 93 02 March 2014 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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I heard my ears ringing, so I decided to chip in :-)
First of all I think we need to think of the 6wc as a motivation boost, and if we see someone who register language time in a widely different way than we do, we need to adjust our perception, and compare ourselves to others who register it in a similar fashion. In blunt language, this means that if someone registers 12 hours of listening to music as 6 hours of study time, I would rather compare myself with number two on the list. Mind you, I am not accusing anyone of cheating, I just take into account the different ways of registering. Personally I generally do not register listening to music at all, because I can't hear the difference between Russian and Swahili when I listen to music. As far as I can recall the only music time I have ever registered was at the beginning of this challenge when I was studying the text of Очи чёрные for a challenge at team Katiousha. I then obviously listed both the time I listened to the song and while I looked up the words. This is so different from person to person, though, so what is right for me may not be right for someone else. Secondly, we just have to use our best judgement when awarding ourselves time. I spend 7-8 hours every day working with documents in English. I have never noted that at full time, because between that and the exposure I get in my free time, that would always make me a winner of the "all languages" category, and what would be the fun in that? When I go to meetings, or I do translations I do however register it, and sometimes, I register a fraction of the time. Thirdly, sometimes the stats may look impossible, but they may still be true. One year I was on holiday, and spent every wake moment studying. When I then had a sleepless night I did Russian grammar, but understandably I got a question of whether I had made a mistake when I racked up close to 20 hours altogether. Of course, that kind of studying is unhealthy, so a couple of days later I got the mother of all migraines which left me out of action for a couple of days. All in all, not a good method. And if you really focus, it s amazing how much you can actually do. When I am in high speed mode, I put on the CD player and get 45 minutes while getting up and having breakfast, another 45 minutes why going to work and yet another while going home. Then if I have a few Russian classes during work hours, and a couple of hours of Russian grammar in the evening I feel like I have had a really good day. Unfortunately my brain is normally not capable of keeping such a regime up for 6 weeks, but those who can would be able to get amazing results. And listening to Pimsleur, Assimil or podcasts does wonders for your listening skills. When I passed my A2 exam in Kiev, my grade in listening was way above my other skills. So to conclude: Have faith in the honesty of the others, but if you see that their principles of registering is to different from yours, compare yourself with number two or three on the list. And have fun :-) 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4715 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 85 of 93 02 March 2014 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't even register English. What's the point, I might as well register life.
5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4917 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 86 of 93 02 March 2014 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | ||
Haha! I don't think anyone mentioned you. I've taken part in this debate, but I keep getting sidetracked. I think it is valid to question someone if they rack up a lot of hours in something, and then they can answer. Like you, Solfrid, with your 20 hours. Questions were asked, and you answered them. What I do object to is the person being questioned, and then answering that she doesn't care, it's not her problem. This is a group activity, no one is an island, etc. If nothing else, we can learn from her method if she answers. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6605 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 87 of 93 02 March 2014 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm not here shhhh, but if you have so much exposure to English in your free time, why don't you just change it to other languages? That's what I do.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5342 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 88 of 93 02 March 2014 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | ||
You are for all practical purposes a native speaker of English. I do not register Norwegian either :-) 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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