|
 |
Mandarin and Japanese | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| YnEoS Senior Member United States Joined 4245 days ago 472 posts - 893 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Cantonese, Japanese, French, Hungarian, Czech, Swedish, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish | Message 9 of 14 29 March 2014 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I've always considered this to be one of the things that makes Cantonese difficult. You technically don't need to learn the writing system of any language you study, but it helps a lot of independent learners who don't live near native speakers they can practice with. With Cantonese you basically have to learn a second language to read most material, and you can't just immediately transfer you're reading knowledge into speaking/listening knowledge. It's also more difficult to find Cantonese subtitles for movies and television so you can be 100% sure about what is being said. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4435 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 10 of 14 30 March 2014 at 5:03am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Many years ago I attended classes in Cantonese but the students learn to write in standard Mandarin
words & phrases. This is common for people living in Hong Kong & Macau. After 1997 the handover to China, it is becoming common for people to use Cantonese especially with electronic devices such as texting and on social media sites like Facebook. Once Cantonese was considered a spoken dialect like the way Koreans used to write in Chinese characters while speaking in Korean. Written Cantonese is essentially Chinese with a subset of characters added after 1997 for the sounds that are not available in Mandarin. The Hong Kong version of Cantonese contains some English loan words that are less common with the version spoken in Guangzhou, China such as: 快點 kuàidiǎn for "quickly" or "a bit faster" in Cantonese would be 快D (with the letter D after the character for fast). 我要keep住啲嘢 (I need to keep some things). Note the English filler "keep" in the place for "留" means the same. The last 2 characters 啲 & 嘢 are not used in Mandarin. Most people will understand Chinese written in standard Mandarin since it is taught in schools. But written version of Cantonese is mainly for Cantonese-speaking audience in Hong Kong, Macau & Guangzhou. Most movies in Cantonese tend to have standard Mandarin & English subtitles. Edited by shk00design on 30 March 2014 at 5:04am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6573 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 11 of 14 30 March 2014 at 9:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||
First of all, that means you'd have to learn Mandarin to be literate, so I'm not sure if that makes it easier. Second, written Cantonese is hardly restricted to "gossip magazines of questionable quality". It's used all over the web on Facebook and web forums, and it's used in text messages between Hongkongers. It's also used in many comic books and in advertising, and there are several novels written in Cantonese, such as the very popular 男人唔可以窮. And theCantonese Wikipedia is growing fast. It seems to me written Cantonese is growing. (Damnit, I didn't mean to make this thread into a thread about Cantonese. Sorry.) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Paco Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 4268 days ago 145 posts - 251 votes Speaks: Cantonese* | Message 12 of 14 30 March 2014 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
I would like to address several points briefly.
As for the original questions of the OP: having read not much, I think both Chinese and Japanese literature are rich and fine, and their cultures uniquely interesting. Just as you would in any other languages, you will certainly find "darker" things if you want to. But there are also treasure trove of beautiful things which would get you drown - have you ever read Snow Country by Yasunari Kawabata? So elegant, so refined, that capture your spirit and you never get out of the water. Bai Juyi told the love story of Yang Guifei which even today moves a thousand hearts, and even Lu Xun, who is critical of the government and people, was not an average cynical writer, but a master of style and insight. But as a rule of thumb, after seeking advice on the forum, why don't you find out yourself? There have been many translations, though of varying quality, of the great literature of East Asia. If the subject matters interest you, go on to persuade the languages in order that the profoundity of the East is fully understood and that the beauty of style you do miss.
1) The fact that serious literature is not written in Cantonese does not make it easier to learn the language. You can avoid learning how to write correctly in any language if it is the spoken element that interests you; it is not limited to the case of Cantonese. 2) Learning to write Cantonese is not any more difficult than Mandarin. If you already speak Cantonese and write Mandarin, a few more characters will suffice for you to write Cantonese. Afterall, both languages use the same kind of characters (well, simplified or traditional though) and same set of vocabulary generally. 3) As the others have noted, written Cantonese is not rare. 4) In what way can a gossip magazine be questionable? The language used is fine Cantonese, and the magazines do well as they are supposed to be: they gossip. (Though personally I do not find them interesting.)
1) Is the transition from Cantonese to the standard written language difficult? They are no doubt distant apart enough to be 2 languages, but I suspect someone advanced in Cantonese would not find it overwhelming. Or is it not the case? I myself as a native speaker can never tell. 2) There is no serious literature written in Cantonese (in my opinion), but if you like, you can read Cantonese novels, forums and tweets on the Internet. In case you do not know, though I rarely visit there, http://hkgolden.com/ is the place where you will find popular, "cult-like" Cantonese literature. P.S. Ari may disagree with my description of Cantonese novels!
I can gaurantee Ari is true. Though I do not know how one copes with when learning, once you can speak and read, Cantonese is far more useful than the common myths tell. As for everyday communication, spoken or written (Facebook and whatsapps included), most of the time people use Cantonese. Sometimes you would encounter an old-schooled guy like me (well I am in my 20s) who does not prefer to write Cantonese, but it is really rare. You can ask people to write Mandarin to you, and I am sure they are willing, but here I note that if not asked, Cantonese is the usual way. Now even Cantonese novels are growing. There is a popular culture behind it, the origin of which I believe is hkgolden.com. (I can't think of the proper English word right now; I wanted to say that it is some kind of 市井文化, 次文化 or street culture.) Edited by Paco on 31 March 2014 at 1:27am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Paco Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 4268 days ago 145 posts - 251 votes Speaks: Cantonese* | Message 13 of 14 30 March 2014 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Generally speaking, the Indian/Pakistan (indistinguishable for me) community has little connection with us; at least it is the case in Tuen Mun where I live, 1 of the 18 districts of Hong Kong. But when we do have close contacts and come to talk, it is perfectly fine to be friends. Why not? I do not think we are racists, definitely not most of us. The chief problem is lack of communication, lack of understanding, and that leads to stereotyping. But I guarantee the indifferent or negative attitude towards minorities is not a result of genuine racism. I do not know anything about them, and I am keen to know. An average Hongkonger (i.e. people I know) would not engage a non-Chinese without a cause, and vice versa. People either have little concern of our neighbours (I believe this is most of the case), or have a little negative attitude due to stereotyping - but I am charitable to this: evaluating Indians residents (not tourists) with OUR standard, the children are annoying and reckless, they have a smell, and some of the men look at you in a seemingly indifferent or hostile way. And we do not know why they are like this. (Well, I too do not know what that smell is, but I think the Indian/Pakistan men are charming. For a few times I was tempted to ask the adults about their rituals, and make friend with the boys who were so good at basketball, and the girls the beauty of whom captured my attention, really. But I did not, for I was afraid I would offend them, and was too shy to find out whether they speak Cantonese and English.) I am not going into a debate whether the standard of Chinese-descent Hongkonger should be the universal standard for even the minorities. I just want to note that we lack mutual understanding. There are many factors contributing to such lack, and one of them, and I think the chief of them, is the subject we love - language. Some time ago in the library, when I stood by a shelf reading, an Indian came to me and repeated the word "Cantonese", the first consonant without aspiration. It took me a while to figure out he was saying "Cantonese" and that he wanted to learn Cantonese. But as I help him search the shelves, I could not find anything usable: He could not read English and there was no materials with Hindi as the first language. He was frustrated. So was I. We shaked hand, and parted. I left the library soon, frustrated. Quite many Indians/Pakistans living in Hong Kong go to school where they teach little or no Chinese (I have no idea about their English). Those who go to the usual schools that we go, are forced to learn Chinese as we learn it - obviously most would not succeed. So, what can I say? When the OP comes to Hong Kong with intelligible English or Chinese, I am sure you can make friends. He/She being Indian would only make the process more interesting, because young people like me are eager to know about different peoples, cultures and stories. Edited by Paco on 30 March 2014 at 6:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| linguaholic_ch Triglot Groupie IndiaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5039 days ago 69 posts - 96 votes Speaks: English, Hindi, Bengali Studies: Japanese, Esperanto, French | Message 14 of 14 31 March 2014 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
The fact that I am interested in Mandarin and Japanese is because of the culture, and the heritage that these countries offer. I would be fortunate to be friends with people who share the same appreciation for that culture. There are always exceptions, neither all people are racists, nor all Indians are smelly and dirty. You are right Paco, that exclusiveness is an obstacle to mutual understanding and harmony, and that is why barriers exist. Even some Indian people do make fun of the Chinese and Japanese, and have stupid assumptions about them, but that is ignorance. It is disheartening to see such narrow-mindedness in people who have no desire to know other cultures, neither appreciate what others have to offer. No culture can provide everything by itself, that is why every culture is unique and we are meant to share them, not to be oblivious of them. But this is not the current scenario. When we reside in a foreign country, we should accept and imbibe it's culture, rather than being snobby. Although, many people are learning English in India,there are still major defects in the education system, which hinders progress.I would love to go Hong Kong one day,study there, earn a degree,and know its people. 1 person has voted this message useful |
If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login. If you are not already registered you must first register
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
