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Yet another study schedule, comments? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7196 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 25 of 46 19 October 2013 at 5:30am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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The multiple courses with lots of dedicated time sounds a lot like how I approached Spanish. You will certainly have a solid foundation if you get all that material under your belt. If most of it seems easy though, it may just be procrastination in the guise of dedication. I found that at times. Spanish was the first foreign language I studied on my own. The list of courses you have will solidify French in your head and will put you at the point of "activation", but your goal is higher than that.
In learning French, I've found dipping into and dedication to native materials to be more satisfying and I feel I've progressed faster in French than I did in Spanish, although my spoken Spanish was quite good. The FSI Spanish course had a lot to do with that. I've been through many of the drills dozens of times, so as far as speaking grammatically correct, I'm better than average for someone at my level. E.G., I don't make lots of agreement errors that I hear in other students. For me though, a listen/reading approach with French has been more satisfying and hasn't been plagued with the procrastination and diversion that I often suffered learning Spanish. My foundation isn't as solid in French, but I can see my current approach, supplemented by courses as ultimately solid in the long run. For me, if I can listen and read real Great Books in French, I'll have attained a satisfying level. When I get to the point of wanting to speak and write better, I don't think I'll need to spend nearly as much time on the "learning" part of the language with a course like FSI or French in Action. E.G., those courses won't require the repetition they would have if they were my base. If it turns out I don't have much need to speak or write French, I'll still have everything I want. If I move to France, I'm sure in a few short months, I'll be able to speak very well by plowing through FSI, since I'll already have a lot of vocabulary and idioms in my head, as well as a lot of exposure to how Frenchmen have spoken the language. The Great Book approach may not give me the colloquial sound of a young person, but since I'm not past 50, that won't bother me, and probably won't annoy the people I would speak with. The real key is to find your own path and follow it. It was suggested to me that I move to native materials when I was 3/4s of the way through FSI, and although that was helpful for broadening my understanding, there is still the subjunctive, which although I'm very aware of, isn't as natural in output as some of the other basics of the language. I regret a bit not plowing on and drilling to the end of that course, but the foundation I built stays with me. Now, although my interest in Spanish has lessened, I still use the language as a supplement to my Great Books approach, as there are tons of podcasts in Spanish out there on topics and authors who wrote Great Books. Now I look at foreign languages as gateways to the Great Books, which I can read or listen to in English, but get real satisfaction from plowing through them in French or Spanish. For me, the shift was from seeing knowing Spanish or French as a goal in and of itself, into seeing them as paths to a greater goal in mental cultivation. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5467 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 26 of 46 19 October 2013 at 8:20am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Couldn't agree more. I had absolutely no aim to ditch this course. I know emk's intentions are honorable and justifiable but the exposure to French in French in Action cannot be overlooked. I thought about this after emk's comments and basically agree with you Coluche. This course has a wealth of audio, video (let's not forget visual aids in language learning, body language, proximity, cultural norms etc etc). It has a multi-level approach in spelling out the grammar, while allowing the learner to be immersed in audio and video, it exposes the learner to complex French in the form of authentic learning documents from classic poets, classic literature, free-thinkiners, historic culture, modern culture and very interesting facts and insight into the French speaking world, The documents provided are not at the level of the main body of learning material, they challenge the learner (assisting the learner to ready themselves for dealing with native materials) they are at a higher level indeed, how much higher I don't have a definitive answer for but this course really is indispensable if used thoroughly. I have the 2nd edition of FIA but have actually bought the recent 3rd editions to part 1 (not sure if part 2 out yet) to study the newer documents upon review after 2nd ed completed, the documents in particular could be quite useful for training oneself to the nuances in poetry and philosophy that the beginning learner may initially overlook for want of sheer comprehension initially. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5467 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 27 of 46 19 October 2013 at 8:29am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Just to let you know emk I'm currently on lesson 36 of Assimil's NFWE (1st round), so yes a long way to go indeed. I'm learning new things and reinforcing language and grammar in different contexts. You're probably indeed correct, it's probably too easy, but I'm happy with it. I think the fact that i'm using so many courses at once I kind of need the material to be not too difficult. 5 hours of intensive study of mind boggling constant new language exposure would not be easy for me. Perhaps that's not what you're suggesting, but at the very list i'm building some very solid foundations and loving the opportunities to perfect my phonetics when the material itself is understood. I never stop working on my pronunciation of every syllable (at normal pace, not stopping starting all the time) and I think i'm sounding pretty decent. Anyway what I did want to say with this course is that I have Using French to follow NFWE and then Business French as well. I have not yet introduced FSI as I'm getting the books covered and haven't picked them up yet. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5467 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 28 of 46 19 October 2013 at 9:00am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Okay so a bit of an update. Yes it's early in the picture but I just thought I'd post anyway.... So first week 26
hours of study done. No not 35. So first week i'm averaging a bit over 3.5 hours a day. I knew 5 hours was unattainable as an average, but as a daily aim possible as I did reach it twice during the week. Today I hit a wall and haven't studied. Uh-oh? Will keep you posted, I'm confident there's no issue here. Current course levels: French in Action: Lesson 10 Assimil NFWE: Lesson 36 (phase 1) FSI: not yet commenced Fluenz: Now on level 3- must say the flaws with the presenter's French pronunciation of level 1 and 2 have completely disappeared with a new native French presenter in level 3, loving it, nasal vowels sound spot on. Hugo French in 3 Months review: Week 8 Note that when I count my hours of study, these are hours sitting down with focused study. I haven't counted the time commuting doing Pimsleur audio, the time watching French news, the time occasionally using SRS flashcards while waiting for something, watching the French news or Yabla while eating breakfast, or reading a website in French. Just worth noting I believe. It might in total amount to another 5 hours perhaps 1st language meetup attended. Was pretty successful. I spoke for near 2 hours 99% of the time in French. 90% of the time with 2 French Canadians, one from Winnipeg of all places, the other from Quebec. The guy from Winnipeg lived in a French speaking suburb and has a northern Ontario French accent from his mother... wow!!! what an accent. I keep thinking of French spoken with an Irish accent, throw in a drawl on some nasal vowels, particularly /œ̃/ which sounded something like an North American pirate saying 'errr', and /ɑ̃/ and /ɛ̃/ seemed non-existent. Whilst /d/ became /dʒ/. I spent 60% of the time nodding in agreement whilst actually confused and picking up key words to latch on the the main themes. 40% of the time I could understand 80-100% of the sentences directed my way (okay so rather loud music didn't help)... Mind you i was informed that my French sounded perfect, that most French learners they have spoken to are always struggling for the right phrases, words etc). They believed everything I said sounded near spot on in terms of grammatical construction and pronunciation. Yes I was faking much of it. I was latching on to main themes and coming back at them with full phrases pronounced very well (not over emphasised)... picture a perfectionist here. If someone learning English speaking to an American couple can nod in agreement and interject with perfectly spoken American English the perception is going to be well there's no holding back here this guy speaks very well so he must be near on fluent (far from it as we know, but giving that 'impression' lends itself to great practice and compliments that reflect only what is actually spoken, not what isn't spoken of course, which for me is a hell of a lot of avoided language that is still in the yet to learn basket.) Okay so at this point it sounds like i'm boasting somewhat. I'm hard on myself so hey I've got to give myself SOME credit. I know very well that I can speak with very very little accent and i'm sure i'm getting better and better at that. In fact I ran into a Spanish woman across the road the other day at the supermarket and astounded myself at still being able to hold a conversation for 30 minutes. She also was surprised by my accent. .... so to stop boasting... I know i'm not as good as millions upon millions of French speakers... my flaws: I know VERY VERY well that my vocab is limited, very, my verb conjugations are limited also (thus avoided in conversation), that my use of idiomatic expressions is extremely low. I have a LOT of work to do so i'm not naive to think i'm set here and have the job done or pretty soon will have. All in all this conversational practice was definitely a tick, a confirmation of you're headed in the right direction and in fact probably always have been, even if the materials were limited, but the fact is you don't know enough because you've spent too much time stuffing around fantasising about speaking many languages and not actually learning them! So with full steam ahead my fervour remains. Today a break, tomorrow I persist. Thanks peoples, hate on 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5523 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 29 of 46 19 October 2013 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I'm really happy to hear this. It sounds like FIA is much more appropriate for your current level than it appeared from the outside. All I had to go on for guesstimating FIA's level were online course catalogs (which showed it being taught to A1 and A2 students), and the table of contents (which showed no hint of anything beyond typical B1 subjects such as travel and daily living). If the actual material of the course exposes you to lots "abstract" subjects and written arguments, it will serve you much better as you work towards B2.
Well, it's ultimately your choice, and if you're enjoying it, there's no harm done. But still, the passive wave of Assimil NFWE lesson 36 is really easy—they speak quite slowly, and the bulk of the text should be effortlessly comprehensible at your level. If I recall correctly, there are some useful idiomatic expressions buried throughout Assimil that might be worth a quick review, but even those should mostly be "transparent" to you, even if you wouldn't be able to use them naturally in your own speech. As phonetic practice, sure, why not? Still, if you're capable of going to Meetups and understanding Quebecois accents, you could probably even start Business French soon. This is the only one of the Assimil courses to use take-no-prisoners, native-speed audio, and it will help with your listening comprehension. Alternatively, Using French has lots of real-world, literary texts, and covers grammar that's a good fit for your level. The reason I'm pushing you so hard is that your stated goal is to reach C1 by next summer. That implies you want to be working comfortably with native, university-level materials and using your French in professional contexts. While I absolutely believe this goal is possible, it's still quite aggressive. FSI students certainly do it, but even their more successful graduates tend to find the pace quite challenging. And this is why I encouraged you to upgrade some of your courses and to start experimenting with native materials. You certainly could add some native materials to your schedule—they're not nearly so hard as many people think—and with any luck, they'd really help you build your vocabulary and improve your listening comprehension. But if you're having fun with your courses, that's good, too, and it's possible to get quite a lot out of even the easiest materials if you have a good eye for little details of language and word choice.
This is really cool, and I'm delighted to hear it! I'm looking forward to hearing more about your Meetup adventures in the future. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5467 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 30 of 46 19 October 2013 at 11:46pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
All sound advice emk. Thanks to your advice and that of others I have come to realise that my goal with my chosen materials is unattainable given the time frame. Therefore I decided to continue with my schedule as it was and stretch my goal (achievement date) out. I think the perfectionist in me prefers to complete all materials I have, every exercise, every drill. That's definitely a limited approach at least for the time being but as many agree, as I'm certain you do too emk, my foundation will be solid. All in all I'm happy to stretch the time out and get as far as I can by the end of May with my courses. I will definitely introduce native materials. I know now this is a must. I know also that come May my daily routine will consist of less time for study. If I can tick a few of these courses off by then i'll have less 'duplicated exposure' (which for the time being is great for reinforcing new language skills and building a solid foundation, but later may prove less efficient) and more intense study some (and increasingly more) of which will include native materials. On another note... isn't it really interesting the coincidences that occur in life. I rarely come across French speakers in my city, although i'm sure there's a moderate sprinkling of them about..... Last night I went to a 50th birthday party. Most of the people there I'd not met before. A woman sat next to me and we had chatted here and there. At some point she said she had lived in Paris. My brain lights up like i've just taken a drug when she responds yes to the all obvious question, do you speak French. So a conversation ensued, albeit not that long 10-15 min perhaps as my wife and I were leaving soon after that. Okay so most foreigners are amazed by native English speakers that speak a foreign language to any degree beyond the very basics. Therefore praise is almost a given. Nevertheless she commented on my accent 3 or 4 times and then reiterated her praise to my wife saying I speak just like a French person and even look like a native French person when I speak. Anyway at risk at making people sick with my boasting I'll conveniently stop there (ie there's no more to it anyway). It was a nice surprise. Actually the way she learned French was purely by ear. She went to Paris to study music for 2 or 3 years and ended up staying there for 10. She astutely noticed my wife's Kiwi accent which I have very very rarely ever noticed myself (perhaps I'm used to it in part). She went on to explain she only noticed it on one syllable and that her ear is very keenly trained to sound/pitch and so on through her music training. That goes to show, learning music (playing instruments) certainly would help in language learning. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5467 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 31 of 46 19 October 2013 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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A quick question.. any opinions welcome. Given the fact i'm a B1 of some sort. I was aiming to sit a B2 exam
in November. If you've been following this thread you'll probably know there's a very slim chance of me passing that exam, so my question is.... Should I? Option 1: Sit the B2 exam to realise what I'm really in for and despite being extremely likely to fail, accept the failure and take away from the experience what is required to be able to pass the exam the next time I sit it. Option 2: Sit B1 exam and most likely pass it. Option 3: Don't sit any exams as sitting B1 is a waste if it's not my real goal and i'm not yet ready for B2 (I do intend on sitting B2 even tho i'm aiming for at least C1 eventually). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5523 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 32 of 46 23 October 2013 at 2:09pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Before sitting the DELF B2, you should be able to do all the following: 1) Read a newspaper article with solid comprehension, including most of the details. 2) Listen to a news radio broadcast on France Info and be able to answer fairly detailed questions afterwards. Expect to do this on cheap boombox speakers in a room above a noisy street. 3) Write a 250-word "letter to the editor" on a subject provided by the examiner, and defend an opinion. No dictionary is available. 4) Given a randomly drawn question similar to "Are single-sex high schools a good idea?", and 30 minutes to prepare (without a dictionary!), give a 10 minute presentation without notes and answer 10 minutes of questions. The presentation doesn't have to be brilliant, but it should be good enough that a high school civics teacher wouldn't actually give a native student a failing grade for the ideas or structure—you need to summarize a short text, state your opinion, and provide reasons to back up your opinion. I know this sounds intimidating, but if you're ready for it, it's an awesome exam—it has realistic, useful tasks, and it pushes you to the limits of what a B2 student could conceivably do. The skills I built for this exam have served me very well in real life. Before sitting the exam, you should absolutely practice each of these activities, and it wouldn't hurt to talk to a tutor who knows about the exam. The DELF exams are "diploma" exams, and a DELF B2 is good enough to get you admitted to some French universities as a foreign student. However, I would strongly discourage tackling the DELF B2 if you don't feel ready to deal with native materials. If you're only a wobbly B1 with minimal speaking practice, the oral exam has the potential be horribly embarrassing for everybody involved. At the very least, you should enjoy bluffing your way through abstract conversations. Before sitting the DELF B1 exam, you should be able to: 1) Read a newspaper article and extract the main points, plus a few interesting details. 2) Understand slow, clear speech about travel or daily life. 3) Write a 150-word essay on a fairly general and open-ended subject. 4) Cope with a simple "tourist" interactions, such as explaining to a police officer why you were illegally parked, or arranging the details of a party with a friend. You should also be able to talk about yourself and your life. You can see a sample DELF B1 exam and get an idea of what's demanded. This is another really nice exam, and it's well worth the time if you're looking for a practical challenge. Very little of the time you spend preparing for either DELF exam will be wasted, from a language learning perspective. The other choice is to sit the TCF, which will tell you your level afterwards. This is supposedly easier than the DELF, and not quite so oriented to real-world tasks. The TCF gets you a cert which expires after two years, so it's less practical for real-world paperwork in French-speaking countries. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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