Yet another study schedule, comments? (Advice Center) Language Learning Forum

Yet another study schedule, comments?
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PeterMollenburg
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Message 41 of 46

01 January 2014 at 8:34am | IP Logged

Hey all,

I'm doing a single reply here for the topic of my Flashcards as it is a recurring theme here. I know it's obvious,
but somehow reading the advice of others allows me to let go and change my method without clinging to the
old way as my perfectionism would otherwise try to have me do. So, my decision is based on others wisdom,
that is I'll not be entering multiple definitions on FCs any longer. I'll be entering as few words as possible and
where clarification is required I'll provide an example sentence in French (most likely the sentence I've found
it in). I'll enter the definition of the word from the context I have come across it. If other definitions appear in a
dictionary I'll not add them as a new card until that particular contextual meaning is uncovered at a later
stage. Unless my first definition is a little obscure and the main theme of this new word has another very
dominant/common definition in which case I may choose to enter a separate card for that at that time or even
still leave it until I come across it at a later stage. Thanks Sepent, everyone assisted here but u were the nail
in the coffin as I send my ridiculously long FCs to their death! But thanks, really to everyone for their input.

Any comments on reading in terms of should I read material far above my current ability? I'm between B1 &
B2. Any further comments to add to the pointers I've already received on that topic?

PM
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emk
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Speaks: English*, French^B2
Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian
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Message 42 of 46

01 January 2014 at 1:46pm | IP Logged

PeterMollenburg wrote:

Any comments on reading in terms of should I read material far above my current ability? I'm between B1 &
B2. Any further comments to add to the pointers I've already received on that topic?

This is largely a matter of personal preference. But since you tend to err on the side of perfectionism, I'll try to put together a personalized suggestion that you can use as a starting point. Please customize this!

"Executive" summary: If you're having fun reading, everything will probably work out OK.

Rationale:

1. The biggest danger in language learning is quitting.
2. To escape the beginner levels, you'll need lots of exposure to actual French.
3. Executive function (aka self-control) is a limited resource.
4. The easiest way to avoid quitting and to maximize exposure (without depleting executive function) is to have fun.

Why volume?

I'm going to quote Stephen Krashen, not because I agree with him 100%, but because his ideas are relevant here:

Quote:

The Comprehension Hypothesis (a.k.a. the Input Hypothesis, Krashen, 1985) claims that the development of literacy and the development of language in general occur in only one way: When we understand messages.

Elsewhere, Krashen goes on to describe what he calls i+1 input. Here, "i" means "what you can understand easily", and "+1" means "just a bit more advanced than that." To put it another way, "i+1" means "I could puzzle that text out by staring at it for a second and relying on context."

Each time you run into some i+1 input, you reinforce your knowledge of the language just a little bit. The more often you run into i+1 input, the faster you progress. So your goal is to maximize the amount of i+1 input you get.

Krashen goes on to observe that some learners need to understand almost everything on page, or they stress out. For such learners, he recommends having just a tiny amount of i+1 input per page, and having everything else easily comprehensible. But he goes on to observe that other learners—he falls into this category himself—are quite happy to skim through big chunks of difficult input (i+2, i+3, if you will) in order to get a few juicy nuggets of good stuff. In Krashen's case, his preferred reading material is a stack of Star Trek novels!

Here on HTLAL, I've observed that people in Krashen's category (the happy skimmers) tend have a much easier time with the intermediate levels, because they can just go find some really cool native media and goof off with it. Multiply this by, say, 2000 pages of reading and 200 hours of television, and they see crazy gains. Of course, this assumes they actually understand enough to have fun. And even the most extreme skimmers will occasionally go deep and get into the details.

But you've got to keep going long enough to get that exposure. And that's where the fun becomes crucial.

Some ways to make it fun

1. What kind of books and TV do you love a bit too much in English? Try them in French. For you, this may be anything from science magazines to Internet humor sites. Exploit your addictions and guilty pleasures.

2. Read graphic novels online at Izneo (thanks, geoffw!). Find an interesting word? Use a screen grabber to capture the panel and paste it Anki; paste a definition from WordReference on the back of the card. In general, anything with pictures will have a higher proportion of n+1 input, because the pictures provide a free boost.

3. Read books on the Kindle using a pop-up dictionary. (Is there a good French->English dictionary for sale, anybody?)

4. If you're a compulsive re-reader, then re-read your favorite books in French. This gives you far more n+1 input than usual, thanks to the context.

5. If you like easy stuff, look for graded readers and kids novels. I'm particularly impressed by the catalog from Richochet, which has a huge selection with recommended age ranges. Note that even books for 8-year-olds will be difficult at first!

6. Longer, non-fiction books can be surprisingly easy, especially after 200 pages. They use lots of familiar-looking vocabulary (at least for an English speaker learning French), and after the first 100 pages, you'll notice that they're mostly recycling the same words.

7. One possible way to cope with your perfectionism: Try telling yourself, "For every 10 pages of casual, fun reading, I earn 1 page of intensive reading where I get to look everything up and obsess as much as I want." Of course, you're allowed to tweak this ratio depending on your level, tastes and learning style. But the key idea is to find a balance of extensive and intensive reading.

In other words, once you hit the intermediate levels, aim your perfectionism away from perfect comprehension, and start measuring your success based on volume and fun. But fun is very personal and very subjective, so trust your definition of fun.

And fun will vary depending on your level. For example, my definition of fun in French is watching The Game of Thrones, because I'm pretty good at French. My definition of fun in Egyptian, on the other hand, involves a lot of Assimil, and maybe just the occasional native inscription. And if I understand half the inscription, I'm ecstatic. If I tried anything much harder, I'd be super frustrated and I'd give up.

Anyway, feel free to adapt this suggestion as needed. My goal was just to give you a framework that would offer a few ways to harness your perfectionism and reduce your frustration. :-)
11 persons have voted this message useful

sctroyenne
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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Spanish, Irish

Message 43 of 46

01 January 2014 at 9:42pm | IP Logged

I think with reading, as well as listening, you can do a mix of both. You should have materials at around your level for learning but it's nice to dip your toe in harder native stuff every once in a while to see how you do. It's fun to pick up my copy of The Little Prince in Irish and see what I can get but it's way too much work to read the whole thing. Even for me now in French, it's amazing how if I actually use some learner's materials, I'll suddenly notice an expression being used every where in all the TV series I had been watching.

With reading, though, you can try the Listen Reading technique or use bilingual readers. For Spanish, since my passive knowledge of the language was really high, I went ahead and read Harry Potter bilingually in Spanish/English. Then I tried listening intensively to the audio book version of some of my favorite passages. It didn't magically upgrade my level but I was able to see naturally just what words occur more often (which is a better way of absorbing vocabulary than pounding every last word into your head through flash cards).

And as emk said, you need to include both extensive and intensive activities. The exposure you get does a lot for your level. I just finished watching the DVD set for the telenovela I got for Christmas and without doing anything special Spanish is just coming to my mind much more quickly. Intensive work with my materials would help but doing too much would drive me crazy.

Edited by sctroyenne on 02 January 2014 at 6:21am
6 persons have voted this message useful

PeterMollenburg
Senior Member
AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5467 days ago
821 posts - 1273 votes

Speaks: English*
Studies: French^B1

Message 44 of 46

02 January 2014 at 7:08am | IP Logged

emk wrote:

This is largely a matter of personal preference. But since you tend to err on the side of perfectionism, I'll try to
put together a personalized suggestion that you can use as a starting point. Please customize this!

"Executive" summary: If you're having fun reading, everything will probably work out OK.

Rationale:

1. The biggest danger in language learning is quitting.
2. To escape the beginner levels, you'll need lots of exposure to actual French.
3. Executive function (aka self-control) is a
limited resource.
4. The easiest way to avoid quitting and to maximize exposure (without depleting executive function) is to
have fun.

Why volume?

I'm going to quote Stephen
Krashen, not because I agree with him 100%, but because his ideas are relevant here:

Quote:

The Comprehension Hypothesis (a.k.a. the Input Hypothesis, Krashen, 1985) claims that the
development of literacy and the development of language in general occur in only one way: When we
understand messages.

Elsewhere, Krashen goes on to describe what he calls i+1 input. Here, "i" means "what you can
understand easily", and "+1" means "just a bit more advanced than that." To put it another way, "i+1" means "I
could puzzle that text out by staring at it for a second and relying on context."

Each time you run into some i+1 input, you reinforce your knowledge of the language just a little bit. The more
often you run into i+1 input, the faster you progress. So your goal is to maximize the amount of i+1 input you
get.

Krashen goes on to observe that some learners need to understand almost everything on page, or they
stress out. For such learners, he recommends having just a tiny amount of i+1 input per page, and having
everything else easily comprehensible. But he goes on to observe that other learners—he falls into this
category himself—are quite happy to skim through big chunks of difficult input (i+2, i+3, if you will) in order to
get a few juicy nuggets of good stuff. In Krashen's case, his preferred reading material is a stack of Star
Trek novels!

Here on HTLAL, I've observed that people in Krashen's category (the happy skimmers) tend have a much
easier time with the intermediate levels, because they can just go find some really cool native media and goof
off with it. Multiply this by, say, 2000 pages of reading and 200 hours of television, and they see crazy gains.
Of course, this assumes they actually understand enough to have fun. And even the most extreme skimmers
will occasionally go deep and get into the details.

But you've got to keep going long enough to get that exposure. And that's where the fun becomes
crucial.

Some ways to make it fun

1. What kind of books and TV do you love a bit too much in English? Try them in French. For you, this
may be anything from science magazines to Internet humor sites. Exploit your addictions and guilty
pleasures.

2. Read graphic novels online at Izneo (thanks, geoffw!). Find an
interesting word? Use a screen grabber to capture the panel and paste it Anki; paste a definition from
WordReference on the back of the card. In general, anything with pictures will have a higher proportion of
n+1 input, because the pictures provide a free boost.

3. Read books on the Kindle using a pop-up dictionary. (Is there a good French->English dictionary for sale,
anybody?)

4. If you're a compulsive re-reader, then re-read your favorite books in French. This gives you far more n+1
input than usual, thanks to the context.

5. If you like easy stuff, look for graded readers and kids novels. I'm particularly impressed by
the catalog from Richochet,
which has a huge selection with recommended age ranges. Note that even books for 8-year-olds will be
difficult at first!

6. Longer, non-fiction books can be surprisingly easy, especially after 200 pages. They use lots of familiar-
looking vocabulary (at least for an English speaker learning French), and after the first 100 pages, you'll
notice that they're mostly recycling the same words.

7. One possible way to cope with your perfectionism: Try telling yourself, "For every 10 pages of casual, fun
reading, I earn 1 page of intensive reading where I get to look everything up and obsess as much as I want."
Of course, you're allowed to tweak this ratio depending on your level, tastes and learning style. But the key
idea is to find a balance of extensive and intensive reading.

In other words, once you hit the intermediate levels, aim your perfectionism away from perfect
comprehension, and start measuring your success based on volume and fun. But fun is very personal and
very subjective, so trust your definition of fun.

And fun will vary depending on your level. For example, my definition of fun in French is watching The
Game of Thrones, because I'm pretty good at French. My definition of fun in Egyptian, on the other hand,
involves a lot of Assimil, and maybe just the occasional native inscription. And if I understand half the
inscription, I'm ecstatic. If I tried anything much harder, I'd be super frustrated and I'd give up.

Anyway, feel free to adapt this suggestion as needed. My goal was just to give you a framework that would
offer a few ways to harness your perfectionism and reduce your frustration. :-)

Thanks emk. Once again a thoroughly thought out response. In short I will be keeping this info in the back of
my mind while I venture into the forest. The i+1, i+2 etc is certainly very interesting and in large part logical.
Although being a perfectionist with my language courses I may not necessary approach reading in the same
way, so that's certainly useful to know/have in mind. The extensive/intensive ratio approach is certainly a
great idea for me I believe with a ratio of pages as you described. Perhaps my Bien-dire audio mag's could
be utilised in that manner in which I focus on A1,A2,B1&B2 articles 90% of the time and C1/C2 10% of the
time.

Thanks again!
PM
1 person has voted this message useful

PeterMollenburg
Senior Member
AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5467 days ago
821 posts - 1273 votes

Speaks: English*
Studies: French^B1

Message 45 of 46

21 February 2014 at 2:18am | IP Logged

emk wrote:

The reason I'm pushing you so hard is that your stated goal is to reach C1 by next summer. That implies you
want to be working comfortably with native, university-level materials and using your French in professional
contexts. While I absolutely believe this goal is possible, it's still quite aggressive. FSI students certainly do it,
but even their more successful graduates positives-the-negatives.html">tend to find the pace quite challenging.

And this is why I encouraged you to upgrade some of your courses and to start experimenting with native
materials. You certainly could add some native materials to your schedule—they're not nearly so hard as
many people think—and with any luck, they'd really help you build your vocabulary and improve your listening
comprehension

Hi emk, hi everyone else,

I thought it appropriate now to add an update....

I joined French 2ème in TAC 2014 and have been studying quite heavily since the beginning of the year....
with a lot of coursework. Anyway I've finally arrived at the conclusion that all others, particularly yourself emk
were trying to tell me all along- use native materials.... So being a course aficionado i've decided that from
this day forth i will alternate courses with reading, (with audio at times) i.e. every 2nd hour from here on i'll be
focusing on reading native materials. Obviously initially I'll be using easier graded materials (children's
books).

I spent a little time last night reading your background in French acquisition emk, you seem to have come a
long way with far less 'dry study time' than myself, indicating once again, like the point of the article in the link
below states (someone here provided me with this link originally i'm sure), that using courses, textbooks etc
teaches you about the language (makes me think of a tourist viewing a culture from the outside), and that
only extensive reading & listening at appropriate graded levels can really give depth and enable one to
become an independent free manipulator of the language through assimilation via repeated exposure and
variations of language learnt initially in courses but then found in diverse native contexts repeatedly. I know I
know i'm stating exactly what everyone was telling me.... I guess I just wasn't ready yet to acknowledge it in
truth, and needed to fiddle about a bit longer until i was ready to move on. I knew the value in it, but just
wasn't ready.

PM (Steve)

Hope all is well with everyone and their language journeys are progressing nicely

Inescapable case for extensive
reading
2 persons have voted this message useful

PeterMollenburg
Senior Member
AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5467 days ago
821 posts - 1273 votes

Speaks: English*
Studies: French^B1

Message 46 of 46

26 February 2014 at 1:18am | IP Logged

You know when I read back over parts of this thread a few things come to mind.

Firstly what considerate advice everyone has provided me. Thank you. You all really do
speak from experience and provide me with really insightful information in terms of how
I should pursue my goals.

Also, I'm beginning to see how stubborn I was, and can you believe it, although i'm
loosening the reigns a little, I'm still a tad fixated on completing a lot of the
courses I own... But I'm working on breaking through my own barriers there.

Mind you I did take the smart decision to introduce reading. 1 hr coursework/ 1hr
reading in that kind of pattern. As for the reading I've taken someone's suggestion and
with the current book i'm reading (about vaccines btw) I'm only allowing myself to look
up one word per page. I read a page through, then read it a 2nd time and choose a word
to add to my flashcard deck. That's not the only reading material I have. I am also
beginning with childrens books in which I look up every word i don't know, as I figure
there should not be too many I don't know in children's books anyway, and thus the rate
of input should be kept relatively high.

I'm still reviewing Hugo French in 3 Months, as I worked harder in Assimil in
particular for some time, mind you i'm in the final readings of Hugo that follow the
final lesson/week. Once that's done with i'm not picking up another course to replace
it but will prob focus on finishing off Assimil NFWE (I'm currently juggling too many
courses- stating the obvious i know).

I've been watching more French movies but prob still could introduce more. I haven't
yet opted to get Canalsat up and running as financially i'm trying to avoid it at the
moment as it doesn't seem very cost effective as I barely have the time most days to
watch anything, i think i'll get more out of that in a few months, maybe 6 tops.

Anyway I'll continue to check back here and re-read old posts from time to time, as
it's giving me insight as I travel along the learning path (in more ways than one) and
find myself ready to accept/make incremental changes as suggested here.

PM

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