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BAnna’s TAC 2014 Spaß-Lobo-IndRussian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4614 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 153 of 236 16 February 2014 at 3:55pm | IP Logged |
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Mostly EN, and a bit of ES
I read a brief interview in Spanish with George Steiner, literary critic, writer, philosopher, renaissance man, interested in the connection between language and identity, who grew up with completely trilingually and who wrote the book, "After Babel: Aspects of Language and Translation" (which I have not read, but hear is rather controversial; I'd be really interested to hear from anyone who might have read it). The last few sentences from the Spanish interview: "Una relación humana se puede destrozar con una palabra incorrecta, ésa es una de las sensaciones más aterradoras, particularmente entre hombres y mujeres (que de por sí nunca se han entendido). Una sola palabra puede significar que repentinamente se abra la oscuridad, una enorme y completa oscuridad insospechada. El lenguaje es el instrumente de la gracia y de la destrucción del hombre. Me sospecho que el diablo es un gran lingüista". Paraphrase: "A human relationship can be destroyed with the wrong word, that's one of the most terrifying of emotions, particularly between men and women (who've already never managed to understand one another). A single word can mean a sudden opening of darkness, an enormous and complete yet unsuspected darkness. Language is at once the instrument of grace and the destruction of mankind. I suspect the devil is a great linguist." I then watched a funny, fascinating, and a long interview with him in English about his life, languages, literature, history, the human condition, etc. (text and 2 part video can be found below). If you can bear tearing yourself away from language studies for a couple of hours, I highly recommend this: Interview with George Steiner I also found a summary of his idea that every translation undergoes four stages, that also applies to the process of learning another language: "Initiative trust, a belief that there is content to be understood and imparted Aggression, a move to comprehend the text in question Incorporation, the step by which the text in question is brought over into the receptor language Compensation, the parity that must be obtained in the new language because one recognizes that something is always lost from the original" DE Watched one of Douglas Sirk's films, La Habanera, made in the late 30's for UFA before he left Germany for Hollywood. It's supposedly set in Puerto Rico, but was actually filmed in the Canary Islands and was quite the melodrama of love turned sour. He went on to make a lot of films in Hollywood (most famously "Imitation of Life") and was an influence on Fassbinder, Tarantino and other filmmakers. Sad footnote to the film: the composer of the title song, Bruno Balz, was sent to a concentration camp because he was gay (fortunately he survived), and the child actor who plays little Juan was drafted and died in the war at age 17. RU I'm still watching Brothers Karamazov and wishing I could read it in Russian. From Ellen Chances, Professor of Russian Literature, Princeton University on the question, "Tolstoy or Dostoevsky?" (Also the title of a book by George Steiner) "The question, in my mind, is meaningless. One of the worrisome tendencies of contemporary society is its impulse to rank. Who is better? Who is Number One? The question should not be, 'Who is the greater novelist?,' but rather, 'What do I learn from reading the books of Tolstoy or Dostoevsky, or of anyone else? Why does everything have to be a race? Why does everything have to be competitive? This implies that there is a winner and a loser. Why does the reading of Tolstoy or Dostoevsky or of anyone else have to be part of a 'success' or 'failure' story? Framing the question, 'Tolstoy or Dostoevsky: Who’s the better novelist?,' in this way does a disservice, it seems to me, to the act of contemplating the meaning of these writers’ books. Asking the question is equivalent to asking, 'Which is the greater food, milk or orange juice? Which is the greater food, blueberries or strawberries? Which is better, the sky or the grass, night or day?' To me, both Dostoevsky and Tolstoy are equally great writers. Each focused on some of the important “big questions” of life. Dostoevsky’s Ivan Karamazov, in The Brothers Karamazov, asked how a just God could have created a world that includes the suffering of innocent children. Tolstoy, through his character, Levin, in Anna Karenina asked what the meaning of life is. Both Dostoevsky and Tolstoy asserted that the essence of life cannot be found by relying on the intellect alone. Both Dostoevsky and Tolstoy understood that being true to the authentic rhythms of life means respecting the non-linear nature of life. Each of the two offers profound insights about psychology. Tolstoy emphasizes the ways in which people relate to one another in a societal context. Dostoevsky digs deeply into the individual human psyche. Tolstoy paints a world in which extreme things happen to ordinary people. Dostoevsky shows us the extremes of which people are capable. Each of the two writers describes crises in faith. Each describes the journey to a life of spiritual values. Both Dostoevsky and Tolstoy write in a way that conveys the energy of life. That energy comes about, in Dostoevsky, through the clash of ideas, through the tension he creates through suspense and the use of words like 'suddenly.' Ivan Karamazov says that he loves life more than the meaning of life. Tolstoy shows a love of life of this world – the smell of the earth, the beauty of a flower. He speaks about living a life of authenticity. Both Dostoevsky and Tolstoy make me think about what is important in life. Both urge the reader to appreciate those things that money or competition cannot bestow – love, and life itself… …So who is the greater writer, Dostoevsky or Tolstoy? Both Tolstoy and Dostoevsky are great…And then there is Chekhov, and Pushkin, and Mandelstam and Akhmatova and Bitov… And that’s just the Russians…" More opinions on this question can be found at: Tolstoy or Dostoevsky 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5218 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 154 of 236 17 February 2014 at 11:42pm | IP Logged |
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I didn't want to distract you with such minutiae, but I just kept wondering how it's possible that you got this wrong -- it's "Flores oscuras" :)
I'd really have liked to comment (in length) a couple of times but I'm afraid I don't have the time. Anyway, "La historia de un amor", an interview with a Supreme Court Justice revolving around Proust, wonderfully flowery phrases in German, George Steiner and comparing Tolstoi vs Dostoievski, and paraphrasing with wordings better than the originals... I doubt very much you make a fool of yourself so often or in so many ways. What else can I say? Hats off to you! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4614 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 155 of 236 21 February 2014 at 3:13am | IP Logged |
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Thank you for the correction, mrwarper.
I have numerous, odd gaps in my abilities with Spanish. I've followed the autodidact path, which is the whole point of this website of course, but it can lead to situations equivalent to wearing a smelly, hole-filled pair of gym shoes with an evening gown or a tuxedo. It's said that you automatically turn to your native language when doing basic math no matter how proficient you later become in another language. Perhaps the same is true for punctuation and style elements such as formats for titles, as well? ;) I do tend to range all over the place in terms of content, which is sometimes but not always a good thing. I would probably make better progress if I went more deeply into one subject rather than jump from one topic to the next at a rather shallow depth, but I just can't resist the temptation. I forget which animal it is that likes shiny things? Or is it a bird? Interesting content is terribly important to me to make up for the artificiality of instructional materials. For example, in my current Russian learning materials, the lessons are covering things like how to ask a woman if she'd like a drink "at my place or yours" (Pimsleur) and how to say, "I'm a high school student in Texas" (Russian World), neither of which I can ever imagine ever coming out of my mouth in real life, even though I completely recognize the need to learn the grammar and vocabulary being covered. Watching a movie in Russian, even if I rely 99.9% on subtitles provides me with the mental nourishment I need to keep going with the silly stuff one must put up with in order to make progress. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4614 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 156 of 236 22 February 2014 at 4:47am | IP Logged |
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DE-February challenge; Grammar
Topic is Relativsätze (Relative clauses): Below is my take based on a variety of sources, primarily from explanations in Deutsch Perfekt magazine, the book Lehr- und Übungsbuch der deutschen Grammatik and various online sources. Translations into English are not literal, but may sound a little weird to a native English speaker, since I'm trying to stress the feature being described rather than really conveying an equivalent expression. Please let me know if I've misinterpreted something or just gotten it plain wrong. Warning: I am not a native speaker nor a language teacher nor even at a C level in German, so this may be wrong (read at your own risk) and it's rather long. Sorry. For a thorough explanation with exercises, see the great site of Nancy Thuleen Nancy Thuleen German Grammar The purpose of relative clauses is to describe or define nouns (people, places, things) more exactly. They are dependent clauses so the verb comes at the end as is customary in German. They enable two or more simple ideas to be combined into one more complex one: Das Auto ist sehr schön. Das Auto gehört meiner Schwester. Das Auto, das meiner Schwester gehört, ist sehr schön. The car, that belongs to my sister, is very nice. Relative pronouns (not articles) Nominativ M-der F-die N-das Pl-die Akkusativ M-den F-die N-das Pl-die Dativ M-dem F-der N-dem Pl-denen Genitiv M-dessen F-deren N-dessen Pl-deren The relative pronoun must agree with the gender and number (singular or plural) of the noun referenced in the main clause. Der Kaffee, der mir am besten schmeckt, ist leider teuer. (Kaffee is masculine singular, and is nominative, carrying out the action of the verb "schmecken", hence "der") The coffee, that tastes best to me, is unfortunately expensive. The case is determined by the verb in the relative clause: Hier kommt der Kaffee, um den du mich gebeten hast. Here comes the coffee, that you asked me for. "den" is used to refer to der Kaffee because in the relative clause, it is the accusative object of the verbal expression, bitten um. The relative pronoun in the genitive refers to a genitive attribute or a possessive article. The noun that comes after the genitive relative pronoun then needs no article: Das ist der Kaffee, dessen Geschmack ich so liebe. (der Geschmack des Kaffees; sein Geschmack). That is the coffee, whose taste I so love. NOTE (difference from English): The relative pronoun "welche/welcher/welches" (which) as an alternative to die/der/das seems to be primarily used in written form, and even then just to avoid a doubling of the relative pronoun (though I've seen lots of double die's in light fiction. The first is the relative pronoun and the second is an article): Das ist die Dame, welche die Sprachkurse koordiniert. Instead of: Das ist die Dame, die die Sprachkurse koordiniert. That is the lady, who coordinates the language courses. That doesn't quite cover everything though. There are a number of other relative pronouns are used as well under certain conditions (wo, wohin/woher, was, wo(r)-, wer/wen/wem) "wo" can be used for places instead of in+dative: Ich wohne in einem Haus, in dem die Toilette auf dem Gang ist. Ich wohne in einem Haus, wo die Toilette auf dem Gang ist. I live in a house, in which/where the toilet is in the hall. "wohin" can be used for places instead of in+accusative: Es ist ein schönes Café, in das viele Leute gehen. Es ist ein schönes Café, wohin viele Leute gehen. It is a nice Cafe, into which/where a lot of people go. "wohin/woher" is used after city and country names and the words for places (Ort, Platz oder Stelle): Sie kommt aus Köln, woher auch ihre ganze Familie kommt. She comes from Cologne, out of which /from where her entire family comes. Er fährt an einen Ort, wohin schon viele vor ihm gereist sind. He travels to a place, to which/where many before him have already traveled. "was" comes after indefinite pronouns (nichts, etwas, alles, vieles, einiges, weniges, das), after a superlative or when referring not to a noun within a main clause, but the entire content: Das ist nichts, was mir gefallen könnte. That is nothing, that I could like (that could please me). (was refers to nichts) Das ist doch das Schönste, was mir heute passiert ist. That is the best thing, that has happened to me today. (was refers to "das Schönste) Klaus schenkte Linda viele Blumen, was sie sehr gefreut hat. Klaus gave Linda a lot of flowers, which pleased her a lot. (was refers to the entire main clause of Klaus giving her flowers) "wo(r) + preposition can also be used to refer to an entire sentence/main clause when the relative clause contains a verb or structure where a preposition is used: Klaus schenkte Linda viele Blumen, worüber sie sich sehr gefreut hat. Klaus gave Linda a lot of flowers, about which she was very pleased. "wer/wen/wem" can be used for an indefinite person without exact description: Wer mochte, kann Blumen schenken. Whoever wishes to, can give flowers. Now that you understand the relative clause, the following sentence should be "easy" for you: Der französiche Rotwein, der ein bisschen nach Vanille und reifen Waldbeeren schmeckt, und den mir meine Mutter vor einem Jahr zum Geburtstag geschenkt hat, passt gut zu Bier. The French red wine, that tastes somewhat of vanilla and ripe berries, and which my mother gave me a year ago on my birthday, goes well with beer. But of course that may not go down well, not only "Wein auf Bier, das rat ich dir. Bier auf Wein, das lass sein" (Wine after beer, that's my advice, Beer after wine, better think twice.) The author of that long sentence (blogger of German is Easy!) says the sentence is grammatically correct, but "inelegant", so he transforms it further with a participle construction (really useful): Der ein bisschen nach Vanille und reifen Waldbeeren schmeckende französische Rotwein, den mir meine Mutter vor einem Jahr zum Geburtstag geschenkt hat, passt gut zu Fisch. :) For a much more entertaining and complete explanation that goes into ways to avoid the relative clauses altogether using participles, see German is Easy! German is Easy! Participle Constructions Edited by BAnna on 22 February 2014 at 4:53am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4614 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 157 of 236 23 February 2014 at 6:19am | IP Logged |
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I gave up on the alternating day schedule and this week have been averaging about an hour of each language per
day. The alternating was working pretty well, but I really missed the language(s) I wasn't doing on a particular day and needed to do Russian daily. Now I'm like this fellow, but happy: 
3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5527 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese | Message 158 of 236 23 February 2014 at 3:45pm | IP Logged |
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I've been tempted to do an alternating schedule myself just to help keep my head in one
language for longer periods (as I seem to grasp more in a language when my head was already in that language gear from the previous task). It can be jarring following up a Pimsleur Spanish lesson with Korean music or Destinos with a Korean Variety show or Let's Speak Korean with a Buffy La Cazavampiros episode. As such, I've wondered at times if I just should set aside days as "Korean days" and others as "Spanish days" for both lessons and native material. In other words, on "Korean days" I would do Korean study and only use Korean immersion material (TV, music, etc.). "Spanish days" would be Spanish study and only Spanish immersion material (which would likely force me to use more Spanish immersion material than I use now since Korean is still the king in that department). Of course I do Pimsleur 5 days a week, so I might have to wait until I'm done with that (35 total lessons remaining, which works out to 7 weeks) or just drop the rate a bit (maybe to 4 days a week like I do with Destinos). Edited by Warp3 on 23 February 2014 at 3:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4614 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 159 of 236 23 February 2014 at 7:27pm | IP Logged |
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@Warp3 Alternating days worked great for my stronger languages (Spanish and German), but I really needed daily
exposure to Russian since I'm a beginner. You are pretty advanced in both Korean and Spanish, so I think the alternation could work for you, especially if you tend to favor one language over the other. My tendency was to spend more time on German content, so the alternating got me into spending more time with Spanish and not take it for granted. Once I got "hooked" (I love your phrase!), then it was easier for me to get into Spanish content on a daily basis. I track my time spent in excel, and at the beginning of January, I was doing 27% Span, 9% Russian and 64% German. During the period of alternating, it was 32%, 31%, 37% respectively, and this past week (no alternation) it was 33%, 38% and 29%, so alternating basically got me out of the habit of overly favoring German. If you have an idea of how much time you spend on Korean v. Spanish and think you are favoring one, possibly trying a week of alternating days could restore some balance...ymmv of course. I did notice I got much more into content when I was only focus on one, and so far at least, my study time is pretty balanced now that I'm not alternating any more. Time will tell... 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| BAnna Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4614 days ago 409 posts - 616 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Turkish | Message 160 of 236 26 February 2014 at 4:27am | IP Logged |
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Thanks to Stelle, I'm diving a bit into Catalan. Actually, is that a good thing? ;)
From Judy Hochberg's blog, Spanish Linguist which has lots of other cool stuff including reading lists and posts like "What makes Spanish unique", I found the following of Catalan v. Spanish: "The most interesting differences between Catalan and Spanish have to do with vocabulary. Many Catalan and Spanish words come from two different Latin sources, such as Catalan voler “to want” (from Lat. volo, the source of French vouloir and Italian volere) versus Spanish querer (from Lat. quaerĕre), or Catalan nebot “nephew” (from Lat. nepote, the source of French neveu and Italian nipote) versus Spanish sobrino (from Lat. sobrīnus). As Ralph Penny explains in his awesome A History of the Spanish Language, the Spanish words usually reflect the older, more classical, variety of Latin that was spoken when Rome first conquered the Iberian Peninsula (between 200 and 17 BCE, relatively early in Roman history), while the Catalan words are more innovative. Because Catalonia is closer to Rome than the rest of the Peninsula, it kept up better with ongoing changes in Latin vocabulary. Other vocabulary differences reflect the geographical realities of the post-Roman world. When Rome fell, the Visigoths invaded the Iberian peninsula from the north. Later (711 C.E.), the Moors invaded from the south. Germanic vocabulary therefore affected Catalan more than it did Spanish (e.g. guarir vs. sanar for “heal”, lleig vs. feo for “ugly”) while the Arabic impact was greater for Spanish than for Catalan (e.g. coixí vs. almohada for “pillow”, llogar vs. alquilar for “rent”). The two influences met in the middle for the word “blue”: Catalan’s Germanic blau and Spanish’s Arabic azul both displaced Latin caeruleus, the source of the the sophisticated English color term cerulean." Language is so cool! Now I want to read the book she mentions: A History of the Spanish Language 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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