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Mutual Intelligibility in Slavic Language

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bushwick
Tetraglot
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Netherlands
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Speaks: German, Croatian*, English, Dutch
Studies: French, Japanese

 
 Message 41 of 63
24 March 2010 at 9:19am | IP Logged 
Once I was on this two week language thing in Germany, and I remember having met a two Slovak girls. We found we could understand each other quite well, if not every single word, but at the least the context could be deduced, otherwhise English would be thrown in (or German, rather, which the camp was about).

The coolest thing I found though was that the Slovak girls could understand another Polish person, almost at the same level as they did me. I suppose Slovak and Czech are kind of a middle ground between these sub-groups (at least it would make sense with their geographical location)?

I keep thinking of Slovak as a language that bridges all slavic languages, I don't think it would be too far off either.


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1qaz2wsx
Diglot
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Greece
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Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1
Studies: Russian, Albanian

 
 Message 42 of 63
24 March 2010 at 5:10pm | IP Logged 
Here are some false friends that sound really funny in russian:

1.доконали тварь in czech means 'A miracle is performed'(from a coca-cola advertisement) while in russian it means 'They drove the beast nuts' (a beast is not supposed to be driven nuts easily)
2.девки даром (sign outside a bar) in czech means tonight is lady's night and women do not have to pay to get inside the bar .In russian it means that you can get a woman for free at the bar.
3.вонявки is perfume in czech while in russian could be something that smells real badly.
4.злыдня писькина-сексуальный маньяк in czech
5. козел is a young man in czech.

Of course czech uses the latin alphabet but if you transliterate the words in cyrillic it's hilarious.

Edited by 1qaz2wsx on 24 March 2010 at 5:43pm
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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
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20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
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 Message 43 of 63
24 March 2010 at 5:27pm | IP Logged 
bushwick wrote:
Once I was on this two week language thing in Germany, and I remember having met a two Slovak girls. We found we could understand each other quite well, if not every single word, but at the least the context could be deduced, otherwhise English would be thrown in (or German, rather, which the camp was about).

The coolest thing I found though was that the Slovak girls could understand another Polish person, almost at the same level as they did me. I suppose Slovak and Czech are kind of a middle ground between these sub-groups (at least it would make sense with their geographical location)?

I keep thinking of Slovak as a language that bridges all slavic languages, I don't think it would be too far off either.



I've definitely encountered a fair bit of anecdotal evidence from other Slavs (not necessarily Slovaks) who also consider Slovak to be a bridge language (not Czech though since it sounds too different compared to other Slavonic languages). Who needs Slovio when you can use Slovak?

Slovak's reputation as a partial bridge arises from the fact that it is on one hand Western Slavonic (therefore genetically closest to Czech, and relatively close to Polish), but its development didn't move in the same ways which ended up reducing intelligibility with the other Slavonic languages as had happened in Czech, Polish and Sorbian (e.g. Slovak has no nasal vowels unlike Polish, and no widespread narrowing of the original vowels unlike Czech).

e.g. words that begin with lo-/ro- in Polish or Eastern Slavonic can have cognates in BCMS that begin in la-/ra- or ones in Czech or Slovak that begin either with la-/ra- or lo-/ro-).

"elbow"

LOket (Czech); ŁOkieć (Polish); ŁOkś (Lower Sorbian); ŁOchć (Upper Sorbian); ЛОкоть (Russian); ЛІкоть (Ukrainian - original "o" has shifted to "i" because of the Ukrainian tendency to narrow vowels in words ending with closed syllables)

LAkeť (Slovak); LAkat (BCMS); ЛAкът (Bulgarian)

"growth"

RŮst (Czech - original "o" has shifted to ů); -ROst: wzROst; ROślina "plant" (Polish); ROsćenje (Lower Sorbian); RÓst (Upper Sorbian); POст (Russian); PIст (Ukrainian - original "o" has shifted to "i" because of the Ukrainian tendency to narrow vowels in words ending with closed syllables)

RAst (Slovak); PAстеж (Bulgarian); RAst (BCMS)

e.g. As is the case with Eastern and Southern Slavonic languages, Slovak didn't go through the change like the other Western Slavonic languages where original *rj/*r' changed to ř as in Czech or Sorbian, rz as in Polish or ś in Sorbian.

"ahead"

pŘed (Czech); pRZed (Polish); pŚed (Lower Sorbian); pŘed (Upper Sorbian)

pRed (Slovak); napRijed (BCMS); напPед (Bulgarian); впеPед (Russian, Ukrainian)

"river"

řeka (Czech); rzeka (Polish)

rieka (Slovak); rěka (Sorbian); r(ij)eka (BCMS); рiка (Ukrainian - BTW Ukrainian is like Ikavian because ě became i); река (Bulgarian, Russian)

e.g. over time Slovak (along with Macedonian and Slovenian) has turned -m into the only suffix for "I" in present tense (or future tense of perfective verbs). BCMS has done almost the same but two of its verbs don't follow this pattern: moći "to be able to" and ht(j)eti "to want". Czech uses -i, -m, or -u for the suffix of "I" in present tense.

čtu (Czech); čítam (Slovak); čitam (BCMS) "I read"
chci (Czech); chcem (Slovak); hoću (BCMS) "I want"
jdu (Czech); idem (Slovak); idem (BCMS) "I go" (on foot)
jedu (Czech); idem (Slovak); idem (BCMS) "I go" (by vehicle)
kupuji (Czech); kupujem (Slovak); kupujem (BCMS) "I buy"
mohu (Czech); môžem (Slovak); mogu (BCMS) "I am able to"
peru (Czech); periem (Slovak); perem (BCMS) "I wash"
vidím (Czech); vidím (Slovak); vidim (BCMS) "I see"
začnu (Czech); začnem (Slovak); počnem (BCMS) "I (shall) start"

In addition, the example with "I go" shows how BCMS and Slovak don't distinguish between going with and without a vehicle while Czech (and Polish, Russian, Ukrainian etc.) does.

Edited by Chung on 25 March 2010 at 12:03am
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Ayazid
Newbie
Czech Republic
Joined 5566 days ago
14 posts - 33 votes
Speaks: Czech*

 
 Message 44 of 63
24 March 2010 at 6:06pm | IP Logged 
1qaz2wsx,

most of your Czech translations are totally wrong, where did you find them?


1qaz2wsx wrote:

1.доконали тварь in czech means 'A miracle is performed'(from a coca-cola advertisement) while in russian it means 'They drove the beast nuts' (a beast is not supposed to be driven nuts easily)


In Czech the Russian "dokonali tvar'" would sound like "dokonalý tvar", which means "a perfect form", so nothing to do with "a miracle is performed", which would be something like "koná se zázrak".

1qaz2wsx wrote:

2.девки даром(sign outside a bar) in czech means tonight is lady's night and women do not have to pay to get inside the bar .In russian it means that you can get a woman for free at the bar.


"Dyevki darom" doesn't really mean anything in Czech. However, the first word sounds like "děvky" = whores, it's also similar to the word "dívky" = girls. "Darom" sounds a little like "darem", which means "as a gift", so if anything it sounds a bit like "whores as a gift". "For free" would be "zdarma", so I guess that's the word you had in mind, but lady's night would be rendered as "(pro) slečny vstup zdarma" or something along these lines.


1qaz2wsx wrote:

4."злыдня писькина"-сексуальный маньяк in czech



"Zlidnya pis'kina" doesn't mean anything in Czech, not even remotely.

1qaz2wsx wrote:
5.козел is a young man in czech.


"Kozyel" sounds like "kozel" = "he-goat". I never heard it used for "a young man".



Edited by Ayazid on 24 March 2010 at 6:12pm
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1qaz2wsx
Diglot
Groupie
Greece
Joined 5362 days ago
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Speaks: Greek*, EnglishC1
Studies: Russian, Albanian

 
 Message 45 of 63
24 March 2010 at 7:49pm | IP Logged 
Ayazid wrote:
1qaz2wsx,

most of your Czech translations are totally wrong, where did you find them?


1qaz2wsx wrote:

1.доконали тварь in czech means 'A miracle is performed'(from a coca-cola advertisement) while in russian it means 'They drove the beast nuts' (a beast is not supposed to be driven nuts easily)


In Czech the Russian "dokonali tvar'" would sound like "dokonalý tvar", which means "a perfect form", so nothing to do with "a miracle is performed", which would be something like "koná se zázrak".

1qaz2wsx wrote:

2.девки даром(sign outside a bar) in czech means tonight is lady's night and women do not have to pay to get inside the bar .In russian it means that you can get a woman for free at the bar.


"Dyevki darom" doesn't really mean anything in Czech. However, the first word sounds like "děvky" = whores, it's also similar to the word "dívky" = girls. "Darom" sounds a little like "darem", which means "as a gift", so if anything it sounds a bit like "whores as a gift". "For free" would be "zdarma", so I guess that's the word you had in mind, but lady's night would be rendered as "(pro) slečny vstup zdarma" or something along these lines.


1qaz2wsx wrote:

4."злыдня писькина"-сексуальный маньяк in czech



"Zlidnya pis'kina" doesn't mean anything in Czech, not even remotely.

1qaz2wsx wrote:
5.козел is a young man in czech.


"Kozyel" sounds like "kozel" = "he-goat". I never heard it used for "a young man".



I don't speak czech.The correct czech translation is not the point here.Whatever the exact meaning in czech,dokonalý tvar or доконали тварь (they drove the beast nuts) in a coca cola advertisment is just very funny in russian.Here is the source:http://zlata-praha.narod.ru/ppl.html.As for 2 and 5 maybe the translation is exactly the same here.
What does ''pozor,policie varuje!'' mean in czech?.To my knowledge in russian it means something like ''Shame on them!The police are stealing things!"
And here is another funny example of a czech night club called 'PRDEL'.http://www.prdelclub.cz/
In russian it means ''He let some...air out''.
A czech-russian speaker is needed here.

Edited by 1qaz2wsx on 24 March 2010 at 8:41pm
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Delodephius
Bilingual Tetraglot
Senior Member
Yugoslavia
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 Message 46 of 63
24 March 2010 at 10:32pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:
bushwick wrote:
I keep thinking of Slovak as a language that bridges all Slavic languages, I don't think it would be too far off either.

I've definitely encountered a fair bit of anecdotal evidence from other Slavs (not necessarily Slovaks) who also consider Slovak to be a bridge language (not Czech though since it sounds too different compared to other Slavonic languages). Who needs Slovio when you can use Slovak?

Well finally some use for this damn language. :-D

Edited by Delodephius on 27 March 2010 at 8:56pm
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bushwick
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Netherlands
Joined 6233 days ago
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Speaks: German, Croatian*, English, Dutch
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 Message 47 of 63
27 March 2010 at 6:06pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:


I've definitely encountered a fair bit of anecdotal evidence from other Slavs (not necessarily Slovaks) who also consider Slovak to be a bridge language (not Czech though since it sounds too different compared to other Slavonic languages). Who needs Slovio when you can use Slovak?



wow, very comprehensive answer! although I have t read again I'm too tired at this point.
for me, especially the situation with "chcem" is quite interesting, because for me something almost in between czech and bcms.

linguistic like this aren't my forte, would you maybe care to elaborate more at how what you showed relates to the idea of Slovak being a bridge? I'm really considering maybe learning Slovak now for fun, as a quick bridge to Russian :D

(Slovio seems like quiet a far-fetched idea, considering how easy it is to read, but I have trouble thinking of a standardized pronunciation that could be understandable for everyone)
1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7145 days ago
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20 sounds
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Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 48 of 63
27 March 2010 at 9:29pm | IP Logged 
bushwick wrote:
Chung wrote:


I've definitely encountered a fair bit of anecdotal evidence from other Slavs (not necessarily Slovaks) who also consider Slovak to be a bridge language (not Czech though since it sounds too different compared to other Slavonic languages). Who needs Slovio when you can use Slovak?



wow, very comprehensive answer! although I have t read again I'm too tired at this point.
for me, especially the situation with "chcem" is quite interesting, because for me something almost in between czech and bcms.

linguistic like this aren't my forte, would you maybe care to elaborate more at how what you showed relates to the idea of Slovak being a bridge? I'm really considering maybe learning Slovak now for fun, as a quick bridge to Russian :D

(Slovio seems like quiet a far-fetched idea, considering how easy it is to read, but I have trouble thinking of a standardized pronunciation that could be understandable for everyone)


The examples as shown above contribute quite a bit to Slovak being a bridge. It's largely Western Slavonic, but it has standardized certain traits which are typical for Southern and/or Eastern Slavonic. Basically out of all Slavonic languages, it appears to have a little bit of A, a little bit of B, and a little bit of C. I and other Slavs tend to get the sense that Slovak "makes the most compromises" (for lack of a better expression) with the result being the lowest amount of general mutual unintelligibility for Slavs (mind you, I don't think that Slovak is a magical language, and my comment about Slovak being more suitable than Slovio was my being somewhat facetious).

The most notable characteristic that I believe sets Slovak apart from every other Slavonic language is its use of the rhythmic law (i.e. adjacent syllables in Standard Slovak cannot both be long.) For example:

"beautiful"
krásný (Czech); krásny (Slovak)

"good"
dobrý (Czech); dobrý (Slovak)

Czech allows for long syllables to be next to each other, Slovak avoids such placement where possible (about 95% of the time).

Even then this characteristic of Slovak can be difficult to detect unless you pay close attention. For getting the gist of something expressed in Slovak, non-Slovak Slavs don't seem fazed by the rhythmic law.


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