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Formal to familiar "you" | ||
Tags: Polite/Informal Forms | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Cultural Experiences in Foreign Languages |  | |
| nystagmatic Triglot Groupie Brazil Joined 4312 days ago 47 posts - 58 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, English, French Studies: German | Message 1 of 20 25 April 2013 at 1:38am | IP Logged | ||
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I've been studying French, which as you all know has two forms of the second person singular: one for close friends and children ("tu fais") and one for more formal or distant acquaintances ("vous faites"). I know there's something similar in German, too, and I'm sure many other languages have something like it. But how does the transition from the formal to the familiar "you" works in each culture? How long after meeting someone do people feel comfortable calling them with the familiar form, and how does it feel when someone you've been calling one way starts to call you the other? Is it offensive if someone uses the familiar form when you still don't feel close enough to them to do the same? If so, do you reciprocate out of politeness, or go on using the formal — and, if the latter, do they switch back embarrassedly, or can each one do their own thing? And so on, and so on. It's a somewhat strange cultural aspect to me, and I'm interested to know how it works around the world!
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| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 2 of 20 25 April 2013 at 5:07am | IP Logged | ||
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It depends on more things, one of the most important is the age of the people. Students
can start right from the informal but it is unlikely among older people or in general people who meet for business. Or the circumstances of being introduced. When you are introduced by your friend to his/her friend, you usually start with the informal adressing right away. When you are new among collegues, it depends. You may be offered the informal variant the first day, because the group of coworkers is used to it, or you may be required to stick to the formal variant with most people working with you. There is no simple rule like "after a year it changes". And it may as well happen that you develop friendly and quite close relation with someone while using the formal variant, even though it is much less common these days. This diversity is quite universal (yes, I know the sentence sounds weird but it is true. A lot has been changing and homogenizing lately across Europe). But in general, the transition happens when the woman/older/superior suggests it. It may be you who is expected to offer it in some situations as well. But in general, some kind of agreement on it "has to" happen, just changing from formal to informal without warning the people wouldn't often work well, I guess. French, German and Czech are very similar in this while some others, such as Spanish, are getting much closer to the English model as the time goes with the formal variant becoming less important. I think it is a useful disctinction, worth keeping, and it unnecessarily scares some learners. As a foreigner, you will be given much more leniency, at least in the beginnings :-) . About offensiveness. Yes, using informal inappropriately can be seen as rude. But you can be pretty rude while using the formal variant, sometimes even because of using it. And there are always worse ways to offend someone than just this, believe me :-D Sometimes, the situation can be pretty strange. For example when you meet family of your boyfriend/girlfriend. Especially when you are young, they may use informal variant towards you while expecting the formal going the other way. But in most cases, it settles down, given enough time and long-term relationship, to the informal variant. Less often (in my area and generation much much less often), it is the formal variant going both ways forever. And rarely, it is just weird like my mum who uses informal adressing towards my boyfriend without having offered him the same during the five years we've been together including one year living together (and while dad offered it looong time ago). So, I'd say the only way to learn this is immersion. If you cannot watch it in situ, than observe it in contemporary litterature or movies (but choose the movies wisely). When going to France, I'd suggest starting always with "vous", unless you are a student meeting group of other students or young people in general. I have followed the rules applying here and I have never offended anyone so far. Or talking to a child is another safe exception(that is another interesting point. the transition from the one being adressed as a child to the one being adressed formally more and more often). 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4642 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 3 of 20 25 April 2013 at 8:51am | IP Logged | ||
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Cavesa makes some very good points. Here in France, if you are young (college or student age), you must always address people who are older than you with "vous", but with peers of your own age (like class mates) you should be OK with "tu" straightaway. However, if you talk to a total stranger, like the receptionist of a hotel, a shop attendant, a taxi driver or a waiter, always use "vous" regardless of their age, if not it could be taken as a lack of respect.
However, things are slowely changing in France as well. It is not that long ago that colleagues in an office would never say "tu" to each other, but today that is more common, although normally someone has to take the initiative to "tutoyer". And there are still families where the son- or daughter-in-law will address their spouse's parents with "vous". What do you do if you address someone in France with "vous" and they respond to you with "tu"? Again it all depends on context. A teacher may address the students with "tu", but the students will keep on using "vous" unless the teacher tells them to say "tu" to him. Likewilse, older people will always say "tu" to a child, but the child is expected to use "vous", unless it is a close family member. And a total stranger would be impolite if he says "tu" to you. To be on the safe side, it is better to use "vous" and only switch to "tu" if you are invited to do so. Edit: I've been living in France for over five years now, but I am still sometimes puzzled by the intricacies of the politeness codes in this country. Any natives may bring more clarification. Edited by Ogrim on 25 April 2013 at 8:53am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5059 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 4 of 20 25 April 2013 at 9:35am | IP Logged | ||
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I don't agree with Cavesa that it is good to have this distinction because it complicates
life. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5012 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 5 of 20 25 April 2013 at 10:23am | IP Logged | ||
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The situation with the receptionist at the hotel is one of the "business" ones I
mentioned as it is between client and provider of a service. Those "other young people" is more for situations like meeting people at a concert and other cultural, sports related or private opportunities. There are situations when using "vous", while not being offensive, sounds just funny in my opinion. Well, there may be many intricacies but the basics are not that hard to get used to. After, it is mostly common sense, immersion and ability to apologize or at least look embarrased about a mistake in my opinion. Mark, why do you think it complicates life? I find English much more complicated in this because from my limited experience and more from my observation, it is hard to distinct friends and acquitances by the use of language and, especially with Americans, it is one of the signs of different approach to relationships and interactions. It seems to me than in the anglosphere, people tend to become "friends" much faster in general but it is a less deep and less important bond. I have read a very interesting essay on this by an American living in the Czech Republic for about a decade and he described it better than I ever could while finding merit in both ways. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| renaissancemedi Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Greece Joined 4361 days ago 941 posts - 1309 votes Speaks: Greek*, Ancient Greek*, EnglishC2 Studies: French, Russian, Turkish, Modern Hebrew | Message 6 of 20 25 April 2013 at 10:51am | IP Logged | ||
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Wonderful observations Cavesa and Ogrim.
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| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 7 of 20 25 April 2013 at 11:41am | IP Logged | ||
In Dutch the formal is used less and less, but we are still one of the hardest cultures to break into when it comes to friendships. I would argue Swedish is similar. I address even my professors with "je" and was asked to do so by all instructors I've had except Belgian ones (where rules differ). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Majka Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic kofoholici.wordpress Joined 4660 days ago 307 posts - 755 votes Speaks: Czech*, German, English Studies: French Studies: Russian | Message 8 of 20 25 April 2013 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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Cavesa has explained the situation very well.
One more point about how it works in business contacts: When doing business, there is expectation of certain degree of formality. To demonstrate this - when speaking with the CEO of the company I work for and to the most of the managers, in day-to-day contact and in private, I am addressing them informally (because they offered it to me years ago). But in a business meeting (with outsiders, from other companies, for example), we switch back to formal, because it is expected there, or we avoid addressing each other directly. To be informal with each other would signalize not giving enough weight to the meeting. Sometimes, it leads to funny situations - switching between formal way (when discussing business matters) and informal way (when gossiping during a break) with the same people around us. But it simply shows when we are in "serious work mode". For German, it works the same. The formal situations tend to be slightly more formal. At the same time, I was offered "sich zu dutzen" - address each other informally by people I wouldn't ever expect it from. I always recommend to err on the formal side - if the situation becomes very loop-sided, the natives will usually offer to switch to informal way. It is complicated - but the social niceties and ranks are complicated in any language. It is true in English as well, even if we are technically addressing all people formally (you). Perhaps it just won't show in a single sentence, for sure during a longer conversation. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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