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Why the Nominative won &the Ergative lost | ||
Tags: Syntax | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5601 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes  | Message 17 of 23 15 August 2013 at 12:25am | IP Logged |
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Ah, I see you have det, not der.
But most of what I said is true also for this: Det kommo två fruar från skogen. Tridiridi-ralla tridiridi-ra. Den ena var våt om foten... Edited by Cabaire on 15 August 2013 at 12:26am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Aquila123 Tetraglot Senior Member Norway mydeltapi.com Joined 5308 days ago 201 posts - 262 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Italian, Spanish Studies: Finnish, Russian | Message 18 of 23 15 August 2013 at 4:27am | IP Logged |
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The swedish verb form "kommo" is an absolete plural form, sometimes still found in poetry. There is nothing left in modern Scandinavian of a nominative alignment in these sentences.
Det means "it" when it is not a dummy subject. The use of "der" meaning "there" is also obsolete. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Aquila123 Tetraglot Senior Member Norway mydeltapi.com Joined 5308 days ago 201 posts - 262 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Italian, Spanish Studies: Finnish, Russian | Message 19 of 23 15 August 2013 at 4:44am | IP Logged |
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By the way, also Finnish has an element of ergative alignment. The object is often constructed with the partitive case, and often also the subject of an intransitive verb, but never the subject of a transitive verb.
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| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5601 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 20 of 23 15 August 2013 at 6:45am | IP Logged |
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In the spoken language the plural form of the verb may be dead as a doornail, but it was still used as a literary device in modern literature.
If I open the novel Jerusalem, written by Selma Lagerlöf in 1901, I read on the first page: "Hästarna voro smått yra af morgonluften och drogo fram plogen som på lek". And it goes on like this the whole book. I think every reader of literature is used to these forms. At least they show diachronically, that Swedish function like German in this case. And I still see no difference between: - Det blåser en vind. and - På sommaren blåser en vind. If you ask for the subject "Vad blåser?", you answer both times "en vind", not "det". But maybe I am too much rooted in the old Latin grammar school to understand you. On the other hand, Finnish is an excellent example that the traditional ansatz of grammar to define a subject can be problematic. Take eg. "Lapissa oli ihanaa" (It was wonderful in Lapland), where you have LOCATIVE VERB PARTITIVE, but no Subject. The use of Nominative, Accusative, Partitive and Genitive in Finnish confuses me, therefore I cannot say, if it shows signs of ergativity. I you say so, I believe you. PS. If you take the sentences: Marja lukee kirjan (Marja reads a book) Lasissa on viiniä (Wine is in the glass) Hänen on mentävä (He has to go), the logical subject is one time in the nominative, one time in the partitive and one time in the genitive. Edited by Cabaire on 15 August 2013 at 6:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Aquila123 Tetraglot Senior Member Norway mydeltapi.com Joined 5308 days ago 201 posts - 262 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Italian, Spanish Studies: Finnish, Russian | Message 21 of 23 15 August 2013 at 7:30am | IP Logged |
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Finnish is mostly a nominative alignment language, but the object and the subject of an intransitive verb can be in partitive, according to some rules, which never happens with the subject of a transitive verb.
Also the nominal predicate can be in partitive. Marja lukee kirjan. - Marja shall read/reads the book Marja lukee kirjaa. - Marja is reading the book Lapsia juoksee kadulla - There are running children in the street. Lapset heittivät kiviä kadulle - The children was throwing stones on the street. But this is ungrammatical: Lapsia heitti kiviä kadulle - There were children throwing stons on the street. If you really need that meaning you must put it another way, something like this: Kadulla oli lapsiä, he hettivät kiviä kadulle. By giving theese examples, I may have done some errors, but I think they exemplify the principles. Edited by Aquila123 on 15 August 2013 at 5:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5601 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 22 of 23 15 August 2013 at 1:46pm | IP Logged |
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The object can stand in three cases:
Marja lukee kirjaa. PARTITIVE (M. is reading in the book, maybe a passage, nobody knows) Marja lukee kirjan. GENITIVE (M. reads the book; then she will have read it all) Marja, lue kirja! AKKUSATIVE (M., read the book!) You can only use the Akkusative, if there is no Nominative, which has usually the same form. Therefore I think Finnish avoids having two parts of a sentence in the same case. *Lapsia heitti kiviä* would be PARTITIVE VERB PARTITIVE, which might be confusing. PS. The verb is always singular, when the subject is in the Partitive, but follows the subject, if it is in the Nominative: Lapsia juoksee kadulla. (There are children running in the street) Lapset juoksevat kadulla.(The children are running in the street) Is this also correct?: Lasta juoksee kadulla. (There is a child running in the street) Lapsi juoksee kadulla. (The child is running in the street) 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Aquila123 Tetraglot Senior Member Norway mydeltapi.com Joined 5308 days ago 201 posts - 262 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Italian, Spanish Studies: Finnish, Russian | Message 23 of 23 15 August 2013 at 5:06pm | IP Logged |
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I do not think "Lasta juoksee kadulla" is correct unless you are thinking very strange. It would mean something like. "Some parts of a child is running in the streat".
You can say, howver: Kadulla juoksee vettä - There is flowing water in the street. Yes, it is the avoidance of having the subject and object in the same case form that creates a certain ergative flavour in the finnish language. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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