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Change in German word order. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Papashaw1 Newbie Australia Joined 4033 days ago 30 posts - 35 votes | Message 1 of 19 23 January 2014 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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One question I can not find an answer to is why Standard German makes it so that IPP constructions use a different
word order: ....dass Ich Das gegessen haben werde. but for IPP ...dass Ich Das werde haben essen koennen. Is it from prescriptivism, a dialectal preference that was made standard for everyone, does it prevent an ambiguity, or reflect something else? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5322 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes  Speaks: German*, English | Message 2 of 19 23 January 2014 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
IMHO, you read way too many grammar books. The IPP (infinitivus pro participi), which is better known as Ersatzinfinitiv in German, is nowadays a relatively rare construction, even in formal German, and, IMHO, your example sentence sounds wrong. If at all, only "essen haben können" might work and only in certain constructions. For example: Das Essen war so verdorben, dass wir nichts mehr davon essen haben können. Since your example sounds a bit cryptic, can you please post the equivalent English sentence or the non-Ersatzinfinitiv sentence that intended to transform? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4846 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 3 of 19 23 January 2014 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Are you sure about the example, Doitsujin? To my mind, the sentence should be as follows:
Das Essen war so verdorben, dass wir nichs mehr davon haben essen können. The word order you used doesn't seem correct to me. Other than that, I agree that Futur II isn't really a widespread tense. To the OP: It's just the way German grammar works... Edited by Josquin on 23 January 2014 at 7:13pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5322 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 4 of 19 23 January 2014 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
I was going for a more old-fashioned style of German. :-) Your word order is of course also perfectly acceptable, but I simply cannot imagine any valid construction with the sequence "werde haben essen können" in it. Edited by Doitsujin on 23 January 2014 at 7:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4846 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 5 of 19 23 January 2014 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Neither can I, to be honest!
Of course, it's theoretically possible to construct such a phrase, but nobody would ever say or write that in real life. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Papashaw1 Newbie Australia Joined 4033 days ago 30 posts - 35 votes | Message 6 of 19 23 January 2014 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
I hear that answer when we are told we can't end a sentence in a preposition in English even though "That is from where he came" is indistinguishable from "That is where he came from" and by now NOBODY follows that rule unless in written or formal work. This rule is probably based off the creators own native dialect or some affinity for Romance languages. If there is no pragmatic reason, then there could be a historical reason. I have said this before, but dialects and even older German texts show instances of alternate word orders, even instances of 1-2 and 1-2-3 word order. Is the 1-3-2 order a preference from whatever dialect Standard German is based on? Did it go like: "Well, my home town and the surrounding towns tend to use "haben essen koennen" 1-3-2 order for IPP and for everything else is normally 3-2-1 word order, so we will base our new standardized dialect on this, and it is similar to Latin so that is a plus." And the next question is, would the future 2 look like what I posted? It is supposed to mean: "I will have been able to eat"? Edited by Papashaw1 on 23 January 2014 at 9:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4846 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 7 of 19 23 January 2014 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The sentences you posted are Futur II. They're absolutely correct from a theoretical point of view (except capitalization), but as I said: No one talks like that.
However, I'm absolutely clueless as to where the word order in the Ersatzinfinitiv comes from. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5322 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 8 of 19 24 January 2014 at 12:33am | IP Logged | |||||
AFAIK, that particular rule has been retired by leading English grammarians at least a hundred years ago.
Since the Duden Grammatik suggests for the similar sentence: He won't have been able to come. = Er wird nicht kommen gekonnt haben. I'd use: Ich werde essen gekonnt haben. The Duden also allows Er wird nicht haben kommen können., but this form is hardly used anymore, even in very formal German. BTW, most German school grammar books teach "ich werde gekonnt haben" as the only Future Perfect form (Futur II of können). 1 person has voted this message useful |
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