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Change in German word order.

  Tags: Grammar | German
 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room Post Reply
19 messages over 3 pages: 1 2
Doitsujin
Diglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 5326 days ago

1256 posts - 2363 votes 
Speaks: German*, English

 
 Message 17 of 19
24 January 2014 at 7:19pm | IP Logged 
Medulin wrote:
Doitsujin wrote:
The IPP (infinitivus pro participi), which is better known as Ersatzinfinitiv in German, is nowadays a relatively rare construction
Except in Austria and Bavaria.

Bavarian German and Austrian German have some grammar features not found in elsewhere in Germany and/or Hochdeutsch. The example, that you quoted:

Quote:
(i) dass er sie nicht fragen können/müssen/lassen hätte

would most likely be rendered elsewhere in Germany as:

... das er sie nicht hätte fragen können/müssen/lassen

Bao wrote:
It probably depends on where you are and who you talk to most of the time.

It also depends on who you are. If you're an actor, orator, professor or have another job that requires a high degree of eloquence, your friends and co-workers probably know by now that you like to throw in a more complicated expression every now and then and won't have a problem with it.
Other people, however, might find it a bit strange, unless they're grammar geeks themselves.
I occasionally use wrong grammar for comical effect, but I'd never use an overly complicated expression to distance myself from others.
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Papashaw1
Newbie
Australia
Joined 4037 days ago

30 posts - 35 votes

 
 Message 18 of 19
24 January 2014 at 9:06pm | IP Logged 
I still haven't found out why the different inverted order is used for IPP. Why 1-3-2 order is used just for that and
everything else is 3-2-1.

And I know it is a fallacy to mention this, but Dutch allows both 1-2 and 2-1.

Believe me, I have plenty of questions asking about my own native language, so I am not only focusing on
German's peculiarities.

Still, is there pragmatic reason or is it just the preferred style that evolved from whatever dialect Hochdeutsch is
based on?


Edited by Papashaw1 on 24 January 2014 at 9:10pm

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tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 4713 days ago

5310 posts - 9399 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 19 of 19
24 January 2014 at 9:35pm | IP Logged 
I don't think there's much of a reason for it, given that a switch in the order doesn't
trigger a change in meaning, at most a change in emphasis depending on speaker intonation
(that is in Dutch). So the fact that this is where German order differentiates itself
from Dutch (which may I just add, is a really small detail of the language), just means
that something happened to stick in German (and some other variant in Bavarian which is
another dialect of course), where it didn't somewhere else, or where other people use
them the way they do.

It's just how it is.


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