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Why is there so little research? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| ScottScheule Diglot Senior Member United States scheule.blogspot.com Joined 5230 days ago 645 posts - 1176 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French | Message 33 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
I agree, of course. And if it doesn't exist, then yippy. I have no strong opinion on it; I'm relying on what little I've gleaned from popularizers, and my sense is that the majority of linguists are pro-critical period. Regardless, I'm not equipped to actually discuss the literature now. I defer to actual linguists. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ScottScheule Diglot Senior Member United States scheule.blogspot.com Joined 5230 days ago 645 posts - 1176 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French | Message 34 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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An interesting online source discussing critical period research.
http://www.lotpublications.nl/publish/articles/001314/bookpa rt.pdf 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5432 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 35 of 81 04 February 2014 at 8:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
My writing may be a bit confused. But let me first quote myself: "The whole debate on the critical period hypothesis centers specifically on the acquisition of phonology." I have explicitly referred to the fact that adults, under the right circumstances, can attain high levels of proficiency. Native-like phonology is very rare but certainly possible. I would think that working two hours a day on pronunciation for a year with the help of a dialect coach should do the job. On the other hand, for spontaneous acquisition of general proficiency and native-like phonology, it is best to start at the youngest possible age. Edited by s_allard on 04 February 2014 at 9:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4535 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 36 of 81 04 February 2014 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
I guess I don't really know what 'spontaneous' means in this context. Are we really arguing about the semantics of "spontaneous" in the case of EMKs postdocs? And is "spontaneous" so different in children? Certainly children benefit in language learning from going to school, so their learning is not that spontaneous. And frankly while I wish I had started many things at a young age (e.g, a long term savings account), but that doesn't mean that if I start saving money at age 50 I accrue interest any slower rate than if I started at 10 - it's the years of saving that matter, not the age of onset. I always get the impression you are suggesting I would get a better interest rate if I started saving as a child, which I find hard to accept. Edited by patrickwilken on 04 February 2014 at 9:14pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5432 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 37 of 81 04 February 2014 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
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C'mon, let's be serious for a moment. Actually, the saving account analogy is not that bad. It's not the interest rate
that is in dispute, it's the accumulated savings. We all know that starting to save at age 10 will produce better results at age 60 than starting at 50. But rather than being distracted by that spurious example, let's take something closer to learning a language: learning to play a musical instrument. What is the best age to start learning the violin? 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, etc.? I'm not a music teacher, but I do observe that all professional musicians start very early. Can people who start at age 40 do well on the violin? Certainly, but I think most people would say that it is best to start at 5. Edited by s_allard on 04 February 2014 at 9:22pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ScottScheule Diglot Senior Member United States scheule.blogspot.com Joined 5230 days ago 645 posts - 1176 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French | Message 38 of 81 04 February 2014 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
If that's all you're arguing, this is completely uninteresting. Of course one who studies 50 years will be better than one who studies 10 years. The question is whether one learns faster (or not at all) at certain ages. You would compare, in theory, people who've studied from ages 10-15 to people who've studied from ages, say, 30-35. If, controlling for other variables, the first group learns faster, then something interesting is going on. If not, then woe to the critical period. Of course it's more complicated than that, but this is the essence as I understand it. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4624 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 39 of 81 04 February 2014 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
There are many examples of rock musicians who started in their late teens, which is young adulthood, and even a couple who began in their 20s. Learning an instrument is an active choice and I think the total hours and committment shown outweigh the age at which one commences. As a child or teenager, you generally have far more time on your hands than working adults with home responsibilities. Even university students - who have adult brains - can probably find more time for learning pursuits than people of similar age who work long hours or have kids. The polyglot Steve Kaufmann insists that he was a better language learner at 60 than at 16, because he knows the conditions that work for him. A friend of mine, aged 52, has recently started learning Spanish. As far as I know, he's never studied languages independently before, but he seems keen and is already raving about Michel Thomas. But he did remark that "you can't learn at my age as well as you can when you're young" Given that he's only in the early stages and that language learning involves a steep curve, he can't possibly know from experience if age is a major factor. But he as obviously latched on to this idea and I wonder if it will work against him. If you keep telling yourself that you can't learn effectively beyond a certain age then you may well start to believe it. When the difficult times come, and they will, maybe it's tempting to fall back on "you see, at my age..... Meanwhile kids and young people just bash on. They don't like being told what to do and think at the best of times. Edited by beano on 04 February 2014 at 9:51pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ScottScheule Diglot Senior Member United States scheule.blogspot.com Joined 5230 days ago 645 posts - 1176 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French | Message 40 of 81 04 February 2014 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
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But again, that's all anecdote. Anecdotes are fun, but the irony of citing them as evidence in a thread that called for actual research is acute.
And nobody is saying there won't be exceptions. Statements like "I know a guy who learned Chinese and he doesn't have an accent and he's 53" may be true, but they're not relevant. Edited by ScottScheule on 04 February 2014 at 9:48pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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