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Cristina’s way TAC 2013 TEAM MIR/SPARTA | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| zecchino1991 Senior Member United States facebook.com/amyybur Joined 5250 days ago 778 posts - 885 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew, Russian, Arabic (Written), Romanian, Icelandic, Georgian | Message 121 of 248 01 February 2013 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think mrwarper was on the right track. But maybe it would be more accurate to say it is because it's a
conditional. For example, you could say, "When I see him kiss her, I will..." In that case it is not hypothetical (it is definitely going to happen), but it is conditional. And to me, saying "kissing" in that case might imply a more ongoing action (like he's making out with her), rather than one quick kiss on the cheek or something... That doesn't mean it would be wrong to say "kissing" and mean one short kiss, I just think it would be more clear if you said "kiss" to convey that meaning. Edited by zecchino1991 on 01 February 2013 at 5:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5218 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 122 of 248 01 February 2013 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | ||
Er... delete the "nouns" bit, I was thinking of something else at the same time, so it's 'both refer to', etc. My bad. How are 'man' and 'kiss' connected? Just the same way "man" and "kissing" are connected and you don't have a problem with it. 'Kiss' is the action you *could* see the man do (← see the same structure here?), 'kissing' is the action you *see* as/when it happens (not a big difference). You could also say 'see how a man kisses...' and it means nearly the same thing again, yet it is connected in a different way. You can think of them all as different ways of saying the same thing, each of them having its own 'formula'. BTW, the verb there is invariable just like 'kissing', i.e.: you could say 'see a man kiss...' or 'see men kiss...', 'see a man kissing...' or 'see men kissing...', but it is 'see how a man kisses...' and 'see how men kiss...' Edit: I just saw zecchino's post -- I thought Mapk's question was the difference between 'kiss' and 'kissing' instead of how the infinitive 'kiss' can act as an object for 'see' like the gerund 'kissing' can, so I thought I'd give an example involving a similar difference in meanings in a structure *other than* the one that's posing a problem ;) In Cristina's phrase any 'kiss' vs 'kissing' / 'infinitive object' vs 'gerund object' considerations do not affect / are not affected by conditionality. Edited by mrwarper on 01 February 2013 at 5:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| zecchino1991 Senior Member United States facebook.com/amyybur Joined 5250 days ago 778 posts - 885 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew, Russian, Arabic (Written), Romanian, Icelandic, Georgian | Message 123 of 248 01 February 2013 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah, I just relalized that I was thinking way too hard about that. You can say "see a
man kiss.." and there is no problem with that, whether it is conditional/hypothetical or not. I'm sorry to make it more confusing than it is...haha. However...
:) Edited by zecchino1991 on 01 February 2013 at 5:32pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5048 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 124 of 248 01 February 2013 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | ||
But "kissing" is a partciple, thus litterally this phrase is (Если) я вижу незнакомого мужчину целующим мою дочь... (как незнакомый мужчина целует мою дочь). The construction "Complex Object" requires to use the infinitive with to. I know him TO be a good person, not just "be a good person". And here the word "kiss" is used without "to". Why? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4699 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 125 of 248 01 February 2013 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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Isn't it just a type of subjunctive?
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| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5218 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 126 of 248 01 February 2013 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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@tarvos, you said that just to make someone jump in and say 'no, it's actually irrealis', didn't you? ;)
Mapk, referring me to a language I struggle with won't help me one bit to understand your question ;) OK, seriously, I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "Complex object", but if it requires the "to" then I see why you have a problem now, and it's very interesting. Please let me check it calmly tonight, and I'll post any useful follow up as an edit here in the morning. First edit: I found this about 'Complex object' and it sure lists this very same structure ('she made me do it' -- no 'to') at the very end, but I'm still puzzled at so many seemingly different things being put under the same category ("Complex object"), so I'll definitely have to check it thoroughly. Second edit: I was about to comment on this 'complex object' thing a bit, but given Mapk's remark in response to Cristina a few posts down, I'll STFU. Edited by mrwarper on 02 February 2013 at 12:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5048 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 127 of 248 01 February 2013 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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The complex object is like Latin accusativus cum infinitivo. I want you to do something,
We know him to live in London and so on. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4836 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 128 of 248 01 February 2013 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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Your answer might be here.
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