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Benny Lewis | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| tmp011007 Diglot Senior Member Congo Joined 6068 days ago 199 posts - 346 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, Portuguese | Message 33 of 164 07 April 2012 at 12:17am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
maybe in a couple of years/decades physical "moving" to the country and old fashioned "immersion" won't be that necessary anymore http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hJZ2bre_FI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdkz59vfn3g just saying.. sorry for "hijacking" the thread 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5129 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 34 of 164 07 April 2012 at 12:31am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I'd seen the second video before. I don't doubt that with time this type of thing will become more common and, in fact, a great aid in learning another language. Still won't be in 5 days though. Steve's video title is entirely misleading. R. == 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5632 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 35 of 164 07 April 2012 at 8:38am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Thanks for a mature post guys! Very pleased to see that it hasn't gone out of control, as I've had bad luck with that in the past. I'll only add that:
1: Please stop saying that I "claim" things. This annoys me to no end, as I am being AMBITIOUS and sharing that high goal, where failure is indeed possible. I could not have been clearer when starting the project that I wasn't promising anything, as I said it in the initial video and blog post. I am so sick of people putting this word "claim" out there, as it's misrepresenting me on so many levels and leading to so many people ultimately disliking me, since they'll take those claims of a claim seriously, and jump to conclusions about my blog title being a magic-one-size-fits-all-promise without ever seeing what I have to say myself. I certainly do AIM for a lot - but as similar as "claim" and "aim" sound, they are not synonyms. 2: I completely disagree with Splog's overly-prudent approach - if I had aimed for the level that I have now, then I would have seen it in sight much sooner and eased off, and ultimately have been far from actually getting it. The incredibly hard amount that I was working means that any temptation to take it easy would have been embraced, but the goal was pressuring me further than simply "trying my best" ever would have. There is no "flying off into space", so that analogy is ridiculous - people need to take risks and accept that failure of a particular goal is an option, but that there is no "space" between the moon and the earth of language learning. Everything in between is useful. I find it so sad to never dare to aim for something that is not 90-100% guaranteed. This is not how great things are achieved. Prudence can NOT get you ahead as quickly as ambition can, even "foolish" ambition. This embodies the problem I have with an academic mentality in general, where it's all about an exam that you either pass or fail, and there is no scaled level of achievement. In my view, speaking the language makes this entire project worthwhile, and speaking it with one or two CEFRL levels above what I have (such as what I was aiming for), would have made it super duper fantabulous. But any level where I feel I can genuinely speak it in most social situations that I would encounter makes this a huge success to me. Keep in mind that I'll continue to improve for the next 3 months quite quickly, so you can decide if the language (not cultural) aspect of my project was worthwhile at the end of June, when seeing how well I do. Although to me the language aspect was just a means to an end, as the language is just a tool to me, with the real goal being to meet and understand people. I fully plan to aim for C1 again in a non-related language some time in future. Failure will be an option, I'll say that at the start, but I will be slightly more likely to get it, as I'll be writing about some of the issues I had in this project (all entirely my fault). Anyway, with that said, hopefully we agree on other things. As you've all seen, the point of all this for me was not to prove anything per se, but to enhance my upcoming travel experience. I really disliked learning Mandarin because of the boring and stressful way in which I did it (but keep in mind that I did indeed speak from day one. I certainly studied a lot, but my studying was focused entirely on my immediate speaking opportunities), but have very few regrets because all this hard work means that I can indeed talk to people now and enhance my upcoming cultural travel experience. Prudence will NOT get you this far this quickly ;) Fail fast, and fail often. In language learning there is no real fail if you've pushed yourself hard and can genuinely use the language. To me, aiming for C1 was just another tool in my arsenal, just like the language itself is just a tool to do much greater things. In a few weeks I'll be 2,000km from Shanghai, deep inside China, having reached that point by taking various trains and buses (no flights), and I'll be able to have casual conversations with random people who don't speak English, and I started to learn this language on January 4th. Dislike my ambition all you like, think I've claimed things I haven't, give me your silly academic stamp of 3/10 if you like, but this to me is a truly amazing thing that I hope others will perhaps be inspired to be bold enough to aim higher than they should too. Edited by irishpolyglot on 07 April 2012 at 9:31am 18 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 6104 days ago 707 posts - 1220 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 36 of 164 07 April 2012 at 10:09am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Well Benny I've got to admire your spirit of adventure.
And I agree with your "Fail fast and fail often" comment. It's how we learn any skill from tight-rope walking to language learning. Every failure gives our brain (and muscles) a reference point from which to make the necessary adjustments. Good luck in China, please keep us posted. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tmp011007 Diglot Senior Member Congo Joined 6068 days ago 199 posts - 346 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: French, Portuguese | Message 37 of 164 07 April 2012 at 10:43am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
you're welcome but I wouldn't say it is "bad luck" but natural reactions to "not so nice" ways to say things (e.g. "FYI: I'll be moderating comments on this video heavily. If there is the slightest hint of trolling, assholedom, whinybitchiness, over posting or irrelevance to the topic at hand, then I will not approve it. All comments will pend approval, so only write once please. Thanks!").. anyway, I've been reading your mature replies ( http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/36222-benny-l ewis-3-month-quest-to-become-fluent-in-mandarin/page__st__28 0 ) and so far I'm quite impressed. kudos
for me, even a solid A1 is useful and counts as "speaking" a language
that's really cool
I do not dislike your ambition and I'm pretty sure most people don't care too much about it. but "silly academic stamp"?.. most chinese mandarin students/learners seem to give you that stamp cause to them your current mandarin lvl is between A1-A2 while you're saying it is way higher. I've read their comments and most of them are definitely not "haterz" and certainly treat you "that bad" cause you choose a really high standard to be judged (C1).. on the other hand, if I were saying my English lvl is B2 but most people thing/say it is about A2-B1 I'm pretty sure I wouldn't say their opinion is "silly" (in my case, it is plain obvious it is A2-B1) even though that wouldn't make me happy at all Edited by tmp011007 on 07 April 2012 at 11:40am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5531 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 38 of 164 07 April 2012 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Normally, I try to avoid commenting on other people's language abilities, and doubly-so when I don't know the language in question. But I'd like to stand up for Benny a bit here, especially after reading the thread on Chinese Forums where people were trying to estimate his CEFRL level. I do this in hopes of (1) accuracy, and (2) keeping this thread pleasant and unlocked. :-) In Benny's 2.5 month video, he's clearly having a conversation on a familiar subject. He's responding to clear standard input from a cooperative speaker, and he's describing "experiences and events, dreams, hopes & ambitions." He does spend a lot of time searching for words, and he's definitely under some strain. I doubt that an A1 speaker could hold this conversation, even on a very lucky day. I think that a reasonable person could argue for A2, especially if Benny were showing off his strongest skills here. But B1 isn't out of the question, either, at least judging from sample DELF B1 exams for French. I know that one poster on the Chinese Forums claimed that B1 oral skills included the following:
However, this appears to be a mistake. The B2 oral skills specification says:
But in any case, the defining test for B1 is: "Can deal with most situations likely to arise whilst travelling in an area where the language is spoken." Benny clearly believes that he's reached that level, and he's putting his money where his mouth is by planning 2 months of travel through inland China. If he can do that without using much English, then I, for one, would be unwilling to criticize his self-assessment. I can't speak for others, but I'd prefer that this thread not turn into an extended argument over Benny's skill level. If we must discuss that, I'd prefer that (1) we try to avoid making personal accusations, and that (2) we quote relevant criteria from the CEFRL documents. And to Benny: Congratulations on some hardcore studying and a cool trip! It must feel nice to put down the books and socialize a bit after 3 months of hard-core immersion. I'm looking forward to your videos from inland China! 11 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5559 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 39 of 164 07 April 2012 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I only had a quick look at it, because it seemed to be the same defence/reasoning/justification that I've read many times on his blog previously. [but just to clarify my comments] 1) I am quite happy with his argument that "fluent in 3 months" is simply the title of a blog, a name for his missions, that his own interpretation of "fluent" may be different from most other learners, and that he is only hoping to inspire others and simply recommending that they try some of his techniques. But the whole tone of his blog is exactly the opposite. It does convey the impression that you can become fluent in 3 months, just like him. 2) I am also quite happy that he never really concedes anything, never admits to failure. I think self belief is an important part of language learning for anyone, and given his ambitious goals, is essential to his success. it's just that, on a purely social level, it's nice to hear people admit occasionally to mistakes, that they're not perfect. As far as I'm concerned, the existence of Benny contributes some interest and pleasure to my life. [edited out a bit of sniping] Edited by schoenewaelder on 07 April 2012 at 6:17pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| irishpolyglot Nonaglot Senior Member Ireland fluentin3months Joined 5632 days ago 285 posts - 892 votes Speaks: Irish, English*, French, Esperanto, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Sign Language Studies: Mandarin | Message 40 of 164 07 April 2012 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Ignoring certain points that will lead to controversy, thanks for the positive replies!
@schönewälder I will be writing a detailed post of everything I did wrong during these 3 months, in the interests of transparency, as there are things I would do differently if I started over, and things I'll do differently next time I attempt something similar. Feel free to call me crazy, but I still believe C1 is possible in 3 months! My stubbornness knows no bounds ;) While I never admit defeat, I do admit that I'm a fallible human, and but an electronic engineer insisting that he isn't talented in languages, trying to figure out this whole language learning thing. (Having said that, I will say what I've learned in the last decade of intensive immersion experience with confidence, and this has been very effective in inspiring a very large number of people via my blog to learn languages themselves. If I watered down what I said to be more agreeable to all and less controversial it would be way less effective than saying it as boldly as I do.) This is my first ever time really attempting a full 3 month fluency project, so I was in uncharted waters and learned a lot. You'll see a detailed post about that coming up, although the several things I did wrong are something that I seriously doubt many people would be able to guess so easily. @emk Thanks a million. Agree 100% with your evaluation and your B1 definition. Once again, I'll remind people that I'm intimately familiar with several CEFRL examinations for different languages, so I'm not just plucking the estimation of my level out of thin air :) Edited by irishpolyglot on 07 April 2012 at 3:13pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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