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Subtitles questions | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Music, Movies, TV & Radio |  | |
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6915 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 9 of 24 17 August 2012 at 9:40am | IP Logged | |||||
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Oops, of course I MEANT Native language subtitles. And, of course you're right about everything else. I'm not arguing against TL subtitles, but the learner must have some (a lot of?) knowledge of the language to find them beneficial.
(Same thing with Listening-Reading - most beginners will have a difficult time using it only with the TL) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4527 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 10 of 24 17 August 2012 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
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here is a study I was referring to: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna l.pone.0007785
you have to delete the blanks in the link Obviously, you have to be critical with the method used and if you are in a similar scenario as the participants of the study. It seems like it is about learning in the advanced stage. Edited by daegga on 17 August 2012 at 1:25pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4834 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 11 of 24 17 August 2012 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
Were you and Jeff Lindqvist referring to Scandinavians watching films at the cinema|movie theater, or on DVD? If the latter, I'm wondering how you know whether people have the subtitles switched on or off :-) although you have your own experience to go on, of course. (I imagine that English-language films shown on TV will usually display NL subtitles though). Probably a hostage to fortune here, but my guess is that Scandinavians don't actually learn much English from imported films, DVDs and TV programmes. Rather, it reinforces the knowledge they already have (especially listening ability, and maybe speaking). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5459 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 12 of 24 17 August 2012 at 1:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
We are referring to all of them: cinemas, TV and DVD. I believe most people prefer to switch NL subtitles on when they watch movies on DVD. (Since i can't really know what people do behind closed doors, my impression is based on what I have observed when I've watched movies together with friends and family.)
Most people watch DVDs and TV programmes for other reasons than language learning, obviously. However, saying that NL subtitles are harmful or damaging is nonsense. If they were, Jeff Lindqvist, Iversen, Solfrid Cristin, I and all other Scandinavians on this forum would have lost our ability to say or write anything meaningful in English years ago. Edited by tractor on 17 August 2012 at 2:34pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4705 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes Speaks: Czech* | Message 13 of 24 17 August 2012 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
Why? Are you sure you mean that NL subtitles are bad and not that TL subtitles are bad? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| LaughingChimp Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4705 days ago 346 posts - 594 votes Speaks: Czech* | Message 14 of 24 17 August 2012 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
That's a horrible study. 1. The subjects already spoke the language, so of course that NL subtitles are not helpful in that case. 2. They didn't measure learning the language, they measured how well they can learn another TL accent.
And that is exactly the reason why you should not use TL subtitles during learning, you don't know yet how the words should sound or you know it wrong, so you don't want to shift your perception, you want to shift your idea of how the words should sound. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4527 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 15 of 24 18 August 2012 at 12:36am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, I mean that NL subtitles are bad. If you think that the quoted study is bad or not applicable (which I actually understand, it is for a very special case and not generally about learning a language), I can give you some informal/personal reasons: 1. in my experience, subtitles draw your attention, you are focusing more on the subtitles than on the audio or moving pictures (that would also be a negative point for TL subtitles) 2. people tend to cancel all foreign language out and concentrate only on the NL subtitles (especially if they don't understand a lot of what is being said) 3. you don't think in the TL, your NL is always present 4. it is not fun having to read all the time instead of focusing on the actual movie ... why not just select appropriate material for your language level I'm not saying that using NL subtitles is damaging your language knowledge. A lot of input with NL subtitles is certainly better than no input at all. But I think Jeff wrote it quite nicely: you need to focus on the TL and only look at the subtitles when needed. If you manage to do that, I can see that NL subtitles might be quite beneficial. I know that I can't do that for a longer period of time, say more than 15 minutes or so. The subtitles are just always there, can't escape them. Others might be able to manage, but I think it takes quite some willpower. I would put "watching movies/TV" in the same category as "extensive reading". It seems most beneficial to me when I already have a good command of the language. Just some fine-tuning of my listening comprehension, vocabulary acquisition from context is just a bonus. I find the study to be quite relevant if you use movies this way. And yes, the study was not about learning a language in general, but about improving listening comprehension, especially for non-standard language/accents. That's what audio materials are usually used for, aren't they? I actually don't like subtitles at all. I only use them if turning them off would impact my comprehension too much for the movie to be entertaining (and then I use TL subtitles). Edited by daegga on 18 August 2012 at 12:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5772 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 16 of 24 18 August 2012 at 1:40am | IP Logged | |||||
1. matter of practice 2. I never experienced that 3. I never experienced that problem, actually the opposite 4. matter of practice Basically, if you're not used to reading subtitles it may happen that you're too slow and so won't enjoy the movie or hear the dialogue. It helps to use shows that don't have fast delivery like action movies or fast-paced comedies. The other problem, ignoring target language information, is easily avoided if you just watch the movie/show when tired. No matter how good your executive functions are, they will be depleted and you won't be able to focus your attention on a movie while constantly ignoring a key part of it. It also helps to have a 'primer', for example to know the names of the characters and try to figure out whether they address each other by name or with personal pronoun, and if that matches the subtitles or not. The only case this may not work is when you have never heard the target language before.
How do you define 'appropriate'. Edited by Bao on 18 August 2012 at 1:40am 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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