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Tarvos - TAC 2015 Pushkin/Scan | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4699 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 393 of 1511 20 December 2012 at 12:39am | IP Logged | ||
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I am not the team leader. But there is a Russian team open; mine is full, you can sign up
for team 2 if you wish. Go to the sticky thread and post your wishes. You will soon enter the mighty world of TAC. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5326 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 394 of 1511 20 December 2012 at 7:50am | IP Logged | ||
Hi! I just saw that they have opened a thread for the second Russian team now, so if you first sign up in the sign up thread, and then go the thread of Russian team 2 and introduce yourself, you are in. Welcome to the forum! Be active here, and you will have a fantastic time, and learn a lot! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4699 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 395 of 1511 20 December 2012 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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Le Breton sans peine (until lesson 49)
Exam is over, I am tired, and tomorrow we start on the second wave of Assimil Le Breton sans peine. A second wave can never be a bad thing, because I notice I miss a word here and there that I have picked up - and it can only be good that you review things. I also learned apparently that you are supposed to do the translation wave back aloud; I never do them aloud. I always translate them in writing instead (which according to Assimil is facultative, but I write a lot more often than I speak in general). We'll have to find a solution for that but I am going to write down the translations in any case. I prefer writing things down. It is how I work. Another annoying thing this book does is introduce new words in the revision lessons. There's a reason it says Révision at the top of the lesson, bozos. No need to introduce words you DON'T know in the translation exercises, because no, they are not always obvious from the context, and no, there is no bilingual text to translate, the point of the revision dialogue is to translate it yourself (also, the revision dialogues for some reason are three times as long as the regular dialogues. 19 lines for this one. That is a lot, even for Breton which forms quite compact sentences). I had to look them up and rack my brain to figure out where I had seen that word. Turns out I hadn't, they were new, and were to be introduced later. That's annoying and this is not the first time that has happened to me. Fix it. Breton Grammar Notes So. Breton has two features that I have not yet got the hang of (well, that is to say, three; but speaking Breton is somewhat enigmatic anyway) One of those is mutations; and it seems to be like the Rubik's Cube of Breton. Instead of merrily changing the ending of words (which happens...for...verbs...and...plurals, which are 99% regular), they change the beginning. This has two important consequences: 1) I always have to check which mutation it is (there are four plus an exception), what words cause what mutation (and also whether they cause adjectives to mutate along), and although the mutations follow a fairly logical sound pattern of voiced/voiceless most of the time, it's kind of hard to hear that initially when you don't know the words. When you know that 80% of words mutate (sigh), that kind of makes translating from the audio quite hard (and I have had to revert to listening and keeping the text alongside to make sure I do not miss a word in the translation, and even then I miss a bit). But overall the rules for mutations are fairly logical, although they are kind of random regarding what triggers which mutation. The most common one is the softening mutation, which happens after articles, some prepositions (da, war among others), the verbal particle a, and also to adjectives modifying feminine nouns (you know it's feminine because it mutates after the article, as I have explained before here). It also occurs after the possessive da (ton/ta/tes) and a shitload of other places. But I don't know them yet. The mixed mutation is easy; it only occurs after the verbal particles e and o, and the word ma (if). It thus only ever inflects a verb. O marks the progressive form and is always recognisable; e is used in some instances when the word leading the sentence is not a subject, a verb, an object, or an "objet anticipé". Basically if you are emphasing something through a dative construction, place/time, etc, you use "e". The "mutation renforçante" hardens up consonants. This one occurs after ho (votre), and a few other cases which we have not seen yet (but I checked it in the grammar index of Assimil and it looks like this one is not very interesting either to learn; a few simple rules). The spirant mutation also looks like it will be a nightmare to deal with. We'll see. Thing number two that is annoying: Declined prepositions! I have never seen this in my entire life, this is actually (just like mutations are) a totally alien concept to me. Only one thing saves this; it is very similar to verb conjugation, and thus most forms sound logical after a while (they tend to use the endings from the être verb, bezañ). There are two types based on two different prepositions. Knowing the ones for a, da, evit and gant is pretty useful since those prepositions are pretty much everywhere. But I know the one for "da" pretty well now. Din Dit Dezhañ Dezhi Dimp deoc'h dezho You cannot just thunk a personal pronoun after a preposition, you have to conjugate it according to person. I have not learned so much about anything else except that -ez makes a word feminine and also that the real hang of it is gotten by just getting the prepositions and mutations right. We still have to learn some verb forms (future, past, conditional) but they are pretty much all super-regular and "no big deal". The question is how to use them, of course. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| liammcg Senior Member Ireland Joined 4596 days ago 269 posts - 397 votes Speaks: English* | Message 396 of 1511 20 December 2012 at 11:48pm | IP Logged | ||
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Re. mutations, they can be a tricky bugger! Can you give some quick examples if you
don't mind, tarvos? The Irish and Scottish writing systems cater well for mutations in that they simply add the new consonant onto the noun so that although you pronounce the new consonant, you still know what the original noun was, making it easy to look up in a dictionary E.g. table=bord(Irish) on the table= ar an mbord NOT ar an mord In the phrase, "ar an mbord" the b is no longer pronounced, but it is still there to highlight what the noun is in its nominative form. I've heard that in Welsh this isn't the case, what about Breton? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4699 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 397 of 1511 21 December 2012 at 12:25am | IP Logged | ||
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Nope. An example is
war ar gador (on the chair), chair is kador. The k mutates to a g because kador is feminine and after an article feminine nouns mutate (softening from k to g. Breton does not have a case system for nouns. Nouns are either singular, plural, or mutated forms of singular/plural. Edited by tarvos on 21 December 2012 at 12:27am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4836 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 398 of 1511 22 December 2012 at 12:17am | IP Logged | ||
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In Scottish Gaelic, inflected prepositions can be explained by a combination of the preposition and the personal pronoun, so "aig" ("by") and "mi" ("I") become "agam". This helped me a lot understanding the concept. Does this work in Breton, too, or are the inflected forms of prepositions so strange that they are not recognizable as a combination of preposition and personal pronoun?
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4699 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 399 of 1511 22 December 2012 at 10:06am | IP Logged | ||
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They are not really derived from the personal pronouns, but rather more from the verb
endings of the verb bezañ in the present tense (like the forms based on the root ema-). To give you the declension of da (to, I guess - it's a pronoun that marks movement or a dative) din dit dezhañ dezhi dimp deoc'h dezho. And now the declension of the verb Emaon Emaout Emañ Emaomp Emaoc'h Emaint. The -o for the 3rd person plural is actually also the marker of the possessive pronoun for 3rd person plural (which is just o). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5326 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 400 of 1511 22 December 2012 at 10:16am | IP Logged | ||
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I'd love to chip in with an encouraging remark, but you are way over my head right now, so I think I'll simply
go with a "keep up the good work".! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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