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German - advice for A1-A2

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Jeffers
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4899 days ago
2151 posts - 3960 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German

 
 Message 25 of 42
09 August 2013 at 5:30pm | IP Logged 
montmorency wrote:
Fuenf_Katzen wrote:


For listening, I watched a lot of dubbed shows that I had already seen. I know that's
seen as the big forbidden thing to do in language learning,   


Is it? That had not been my impression from HTLAL to be honest.
Isn't it compatible with the idea of comprehensible input?


I think watching dubbed programmes is quite popular among HTLAL members. If you already have a lot of DVDs, it's likely that some of them are dubbed in your target language, so it is a good way to get a lot of films without spending any extra money.

I am the only voice against dubbed films that I have noticed on HTLAL. There are two main reasons I don't use them often:
  1. It is important to learn facial expressions and body language in your TL. In fact, this is one of the principles behind French in Action. Proper pronunciation requires facial movement. Other than speaking directly with native speakers, native films are the best way to learn facial experssions and body language.
  2. Native films are a great way to learn about the culture of your target language. In fact, enjoying world cinema is one of the main reasons often listed for learning some languages (e.g. French, Italian, Hindi).


Having said that, dubbed films and TV shows can be a great way to learn a language. A lot of learners have learned a lot by rewatching a favourite series dubbed in their TL. But personally, I enjoy discovering what native film and TV have to offer.
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patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
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Studies: German

 
 Message 26 of 42
09 August 2013 at 6:54pm | IP Logged 
nonneb wrote:
What qualities of the dubbing make it better? I'm just asking because I was visiting Germany recently and went to go see a movie with a native speaker, and they kept swearing at the movie (more the previews than the feature, actually) for using Anglicisms and kept repeating, "You can't say that in German." (The movie was the most recent Star Trek, if anyone's interested) Is this an uncommon perception of the dubs?


My German is not good enough to really make any definite judgments on Anglicisms, though there are 1000s of these in common use in Germany. However, I do suspect it matters what your age and perhaps where you come in Germany. I watch a lot of German dubbing with my wife who is a native speaker, and she has never complained about the language.

The more problematic aspect is that dubbing runs over the use of accents completely, which can ruin a lot of the subtly in the original film. The most glaring example would be The Wire where both blacks and whites speak with the same Hoch Deutsch. It makes me wonder how much I miss when I watch non-English films with subtitles - the accents of the characters probably signify a great deal that is completely lost on me.

Funnily enough I have been learning words from the German Harry Potter, and there are some that make my wife and other friends laugh, not because they are Anglisms, but because they really low frequency/old fashioned, I assume because the translator was from another region.

Edited by patrickwilken on 09 August 2013 at 6:57pm
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beano
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Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian

 
 Message 27 of 42
10 August 2013 at 12:51pm | IP Logged 
Here's a tip for you. Listen to your wife speaking on the phone and picture the events in your head. I don't
mean snooping, but rather listen in when she chats to a family member or friend, relating what has been
happening recently. I learned a massive amount of words by doing this, all of them useful. If you don't
recognise a particular word it can often be guessed from the context (made all the easier if the theme relates
to your own life).

For example, I have just returned from picking wild fruit. As you may know, the verb to describe this is
sammeln. This is the sort of word you can pick up simply by listening in.
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montmorency
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 Message 28 of 42
10 August 2013 at 4:21pm | IP Logged 
patrickwilken wrote:


My German is not good enough to really make any definite judgments on Anglicisms,
though there are 1000s of these in common use in Germany. However, I do suspect it
matters what your age and perhaps where you come in Germany. I watch a lot of German
dubbing with my wife who is a native speaker, and she has never complained about the
language.

The more problematic aspect is that dubbing runs over the use of accents completely,
which can ruin a lot of the subtly in the original film. The most glaring example would
be The Wire where both blacks and whites speak with the same Hoch Deutsch. It makes me
wonder how much I miss when I watch non-English films with subtitles - the accents of
the characters probably signify a great deal that is completely lost on me.

Funnily enough I have been learning words from the German Harry Potter, and there are
some that make my wife and other friends laugh, not because they are Anglisms, but
because they really low frequency/old fashioned, I assume because the translator was
from another region.


I wonder if that was actually deliberate, to try to convey the flavour of the original
Harry Potter style English? Because the language used in the HP originals (books and
films), is, I think you'd have to admit, necessarily stylised because of its subject
matter.

I agree with your general point though, and prefer to watch non-dubbed material if
possible, but if dubbed is all I can get, then (somewhat to my surprise these days),
it's not such a bad option.
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patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 4523 days ago
1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 29 of 42
10 August 2013 at 9:36pm | IP Logged 
montmorency wrote:

I wonder if that was actually deliberate, to try to convey the flavour of the original
Harry Potter style English? Because the language used in the HP originals (books and
films), is, I think you'd have to admit, necessarily stylised because of its subject
matter.


I never read the books, but I didn't find the language of the movies that low frequency. Some of the words I use I have had people swear aren't used at all in normal German, and it's hard for me to think of equivalent low frequency German words.

Anyway, obviously, the bulk of the language in the books is straightforward and useful to learn.
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montmorency
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 Message 30 of 42
10 August 2013 at 11:59pm | IP Logged 
patrickwilken wrote:
montmorency wrote:

I wonder if that was actually deliberate, to try to convey the flavour of the original
Harry Potter style English? Because the language used in the HP originals (books and
films), is, I think you'd have to admit, necessarily stylised because of its subject
matter.


I never read the books, but I didn't find the language of the movies that low
frequency. Some of the words I use I have had people swear aren't used at all in normal
German, and it's hard for me to think of equivalent low frequency German words.

Anyway, obviously, the bulk of the language in the books is straightforward and
useful to learn.


Er, but you never read the books, you said! :-)

Well, I just grabbed three of the books (in English) at random, and had a skim through
and now I look at this question specifically, I'd agree that the language in the
English versions isn't all that unusual, except for specialist words like "muggles",
and a word I just came across "Transfiguration" (classes), and there will be other odd
things like that scattered around the books.

Come to think, it's not so much that the vocabulary is unusual, but the whole situation
is unusual, for obvious reasons. But if you strip away the magic, what you are left
with is an old-fashioned English boarding school story (probably based on the kind of
thing J.K.Rowling read as a young girl), so I for one, would not particularly expect it
to be written in modern contemporary English.


As for "useful to learn", yes, I agree the language used will be "useful to learn", but
then I tend to think all language is useful to learn, but that's probably a minority
view.

Edited by montmorency on 11 August 2013 at 2:24am
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patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 4523 days ago
1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 31 of 42
11 August 2013 at 10:29am | IP Logged 
montmorency wrote:


Er, but you never read the books, you said! :-)


Sorry I meant I had never read the English versions of the book. I should finish the last German book in the series next week. :)



Edited by patrickwilken on 11 August 2013 at 10:30am
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patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 4523 days ago
1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 32 of 42
12 November 2014 at 10:49am | IP Logged 
I wanted to resurrect this thread.

I am going to be meeting with some people this Saturday in Berlin to talk about self-learning. I would really appreciate any further-suggestions/personal-experiences about courses/techniques to get from from A0 to B1 in German, as I think my own way of doing this was too idiosyncratic to be of much help to anyone.

The main options seem to be Assimil, Pimsleur and Michel Thomas (not free) and Deutsche Welle (free) and FSI (? - free).

Is that correct? Are there any others that people would recommend? Do people have any thoughts about other programs like Duolingo?

From what I gather:

* Assimil is the best for vocabulary and some grammar. (you end up about B1?)

* Michel Thomas and Pimsleur are great for speaking. (you end up about B1?)

* Deutsche Welle are good for ? (you end up about B2??)

Basically, what I am looking for are different opinions on the most effective ways to get from beginner to some intermediate level where you can start accessing native materials.

Edited by patrickwilken on 12 November 2014 at 10:51am


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