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PMs TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission | ||
Tags: TellMeMore | Fluenz | Linguaphone | Flash cards | Michel Thomas | Self-Study | Spaced Repetition (SRS) | Diploma/Certificate | Study Plan | Fluency | Dutch | Pimsleur | FSI | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | Assimil | French | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5524 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes  Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 65 of 451 29 April 2014 at 4:21am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Yeah, I have no idea whether reading is strictly necessary or not. But personally, I'm a big fan of practical activities: reading books, watching TV, talking to people and occasionally writing. My half-baked theory is that we learn our first languages that way, and that it still helps a lot even when we're adults. That's not to say I'm against courses or dictionaries or anything. :-) But studying is a lot easier when I've already seen stuff a hundred times in context.
Honestly, I don't like typing in sentence cards. In theory, it should serve as a scriptorium exercise, but it's slow and error-prone. Khatzumoto has been encouraging people to use all-digital sentence sources for a while now. This also makes it psychologically easier to delete lousy sentences. :-) I'm not saying you shouldn't try making sentences by hand, however. It might be a good idea for you, in your circumstances. But if you find that it's becoming a time sink, consider reading an ebook and using the built-in "highlight" function, then exporting everything to a text file. Also, don't try to learn every unknown word. Some words are so easy that you'll figure them out from context and never forget them; other words are just useless. But there's a chunk of words right in the middle that you'll see over and over again, and which will refuse to make sense or to stick for more than a day. Those words have the biggest payoff.
Pretty good, actually. I can highlight a sentence on my tablet in a few seconds, and export a book's worth of sentences in a minute or two. Once the sentences are in my program, the work flow goes like this: 1. Highlight an unknown word in the sentence and click "Lookup". 2. (Optional) Switch between dictionaries. 3. Copy and paste a definition or a picture onto the back of the card. (The "word =" bit is prefilled.) 4. Click next. The most time-consuming part is actually choosing which definition or picture to use. But I don't mind that, because that's actually studying time: I'm trying to puzzle out the French text. This card for chaloupe was a nice example: the word chaloupe includes rowboats, lifeboats and small motorized skiffs. This is the sort of thing that takes me a little while to puzzle out. (I learned this word because it was really common in a book I read, and I couldn't figure out what kind of boat they were talking about.)
You'd probably need to mess around a bit, unfortunately. My tool can export in CSV and JSON format, and a programmer could hook it up to another system pretty easily. But you might want to take a look at readlang, too. That site supports both web pages and books in epub format.
This is one of the drawbacks with sentence cards, actually: If you don't have good tools, they take too long to make. You have to mark them, type them in, find definitions, switch back and forth between windows, etc. I've given you a lot of details about my own personal workflow in this post. But that was only because I wanted to keep things concrete, and not because I think anybody should imitate all the fiddly little details. (I change them all the time, anyway!) Feel free to pilfer any ideas which seem promising and ignore the rest. Edited by emk on 29 April 2014 at 4:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 66 of 451 29 April 2014 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Sounds logical to me :)
All digital sentence sources meaning copy and paste from e-books as you've suggested right?
Okay so with 7200 flashcards in my deck i was adding EVERY SINGLE WORD I ever came across that wasn't previously entered into my deck. Why? Well I wanted to get an idea of my vocab size in the process. So do you think it would serve me well to start a new French only deck and then to ONLY enter those words that i'm struggling to recall as you've mentioned, and forget the rest because I'll basically come across them enough in context or figure them out anyway right? I'm repeating what you're saying I think, I do this a lot as I look for reassurance before proceeding. It often comes across as lack of intelligence or confidence, perhaps it is, but in the end that's just me. I'm liking your suggestions tho emk and willing to proceed by adapting your methods and seeing how I go with it.
Before I continue, I just want to mention I can import pictures with some degree of ease, although it involves a few too many clicks in and out of programs than I would like. However I came to the decision today after a quick mess around with pictures in my flashcard app that I prefer definitions, examples, 'fill in the gaps' as opposed to pictures, as pictures involve no use of language, so I'd rather use language (after all that's what i'm learning to use) to infer meaning of a French word.... Getting back to your tool/program. Is this something I could use on an iOS platform? I have many many ebooks in iBooks that I can view either on iPhone or iPad. I really do not want to ditch iOS since my whole setup - dictionaries, flashcards, audio, pdfs, books are all on there... so changing to a new platform isn't really an option unless I want to pour a lot of money down the drain and then some with a new platform. I know you're not suggesting I do that, but I guess i'm mentioning it as I'd like to know if I can set up a similar method to yours on my iOS devices. I can utilise a built in French only dictionary for quick look up of words and select a sentence that way and paste into my flaschards all within my iOS device(s). But i'm still curious about this program of yours, it seems like an extra step- like we're adding a middle-man here so to speak. A little further clarification on it's usefulness would be nice emk, and perhaps more description of the actual program - name, platform, price and whether such thing would work on my apple devices[/QUOTE]
All my iBooks are in .epub format I believe, so that may work if apple isn't too greedy and these iBooks are open to be used elsewhere (outside an iOS device)- not sure how that would work- i'm ok-ish with technology, but do get left behind sometimes. As for readlang i've signed up for it but tried it once i think and can't remember much about it. I've recently signed up to a lot of handy little things like that but in my busy daily life and commitment to completing courses have had little time to really use such things. However if it makes studying easier... and adds to the usefulness of a reading/flashcard set up like your own then i'd be willing to at least try it :) [/QUOTE]
I really appreciate the details of your personal approach to study emk. Thank you. As for changing them- being a chameleon so to speak in life is a plus. They found in some study (they find a lot of things I know) that those who lived long active lives with a good quality of life well into older age were those who were able to adapt to life's changes. So although sometimes I feel some changes I've seen in my life might actually dumb us down, others can be used to our advantage. Language learning is certainly like that, if you adapt new methods, evolve, and are prepared to self reflect and even, dare I say it, let go of stubborn attitudes, perhaps we'll get there in the end with a smile on our face :) So this is my plan: 1. Begin now (not later as i had suggested) aiming to study for at least 2 hours a day (life changes coming up might make that difficult, but i will endeavour to try and to at least be consistent). 2. An hour of reading a day, an hour of coursework (note other methods will be used more sparingly also). 3.start a new flashcard deck only adding words I really cannot work out their meaning (good luck to me- the pedagogical stubborn one!) ie STOP adding every word. 4. Use French only in my flashcard deck(s) ie STOP using English. 5. Words requiring entry into my flashcard deck(s) I shal select/ highlight phrases from the context I find these words in, in their electronic sources and paste them into my flashcard deck(s) as examples of the words in use in their natural context... and/or provide French only definitions. 6. Those that I cannot copy/paste as they are from paper sources I shall simply type them in as I have been doing, but in French only 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5524 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 67 of 451 29 April 2014 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Yup. It saves a lot of time, and I can't make any data-entry mistakes. As with most things, though, I'm not too strict about this: if I see a really awesome sentence in a printed book, I might type it in.
Yeah, if you read a lot, you'll figure out lots of words out from context. Sometimes this will be an "Ah ha" moment, and sometimes you'll learn the words without ever realizing it. But as you read, you'll notice certain annoying words that keep popping up, but which refuse to make any sense. Those are the words which benefit the most from flashcard software. So when you see a word and find yourself asking, "What does that word mean, anyway?", consider adding it. But if a word mostly makes sense, you can leave it alone and just keep reading, and have faith that you'll understand it better each time you see it. Similarly, if you've never seen a word before, you can usually let it go: If it's important, you'll see it again soon enough. And remember: You can get quite a lot of benefit just by reading, without using flashcard software at all. Flashcards are nice optional boost. Just by itself, reading will help turn French that you can "puzzle out" into French that's completely second nature.
Feel free to swipe ideas, but please make them your own. I've change my methods all the time, and I even use different methods for French and Egyptian. I've gotten flamed for this before, but let me give you the rules of thumb I use to choose methods: 1. Am I paying close attention to something in French? (A conversion, a book, an essay that I'm writing, etc.) 2. Am I enjoying myself? 3. Do I frequently encounter the language in its natural state? If the answer to these three questions is "Yes," then I assume that things are probably going to work out OK. Now, (2) isn't strictly essential, and (3) is optional in the beginning, though personally I really need it starting around B1 at the latest.
The card-making part of my program is web based. If you send me your email address via PM, I'll get you set up. It's in a private beta right now, and the basic features are free. (The advanced features actually cost me money every time somebody uses them, so those are only free to beta testers. Being a beta tester is pretty easy, though: You try it out, and you send me email explaining what you found frustrating.) The only thing you really need to capture sentences is an epub reader that can export your highlights to a file, typically once you finish the book. (I don't like stopping when I'm reading; it breaks the flow.) To make the actual cards, though, I recommend using a regular computer with a browser—it's much more efficient to copy and paste definitions on a real computer. But please keep in mind, there's no particular reason why my software would be best for you. You might prefer readlang, or JC Identity's iPad app, or one of the other products in this space. My program is mostly optimized for people who want to use regular ebook readers and Anki, and who don't want to do all their reading in a specialized application. But some of the specialized applications are quite nice! And as I mentioned before, to a great extent, you don't need any of this software. You could just pick up a fun paperback, read it, and skip over any bits that don't make sense. The pop-up dictionaries, the ability to save sentences to Anki—all of this is secondary. It's nice to be able to look up a word with a tap of your finger, or to be able to export an interesting sentence to flash card software for later review. But the real benefits of reading come from the absolute basics: Reading a lot, and staying in contact with French. It can be fun to mess around with technology and study methods. But if you ever find yourself saying, "Well, before I can start reading, I need to change my flashcard software, decide whether to use pictures or written definitions, and find precisely the right reading material," well, it's probably time to just go pick up a book and start reading. :-)
I like this plan. What you'll find, I think, is that the studying and the reading will reinforce each other: You'll studying something in your course, and you'll suddenly notice it everywhere in your reading. Or you'll see something a hundred times in your reading, and when it appears in your course, you'll say, "Hey! So that's how that works." Also, keep an eye on Napoleon's log. Since the beginning of the year, he's been getting really into native materials, and he's making crazy amounts of progress lately. Tastyonions went through much the same process when he was getting started. It's fun watching people's abilities expand at such a crazy rate. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4901 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 68 of 451 29 April 2014 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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That all looks like good stuff. Just be careful you don't get so wrapped up in the
process of making cards that you're not doing much reading/studying! Peter, have you considered trying the Super Challenge? It seems like a huge task to read 100 books and watch 100 films. But if you work it out, it's just 8.2 pages per day and 14.7 minutes watching (or listening) per day. Which just goes to show that a little bit every day adds up to a large accomplishment, and that's what the Super Challenge is all about. Plus, it will be fun to share progress and ideas. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 69 of 451 30 April 2014 at 12:29am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Hi Jeffers, I really appreciate your comments, thanks Jeffers. I actually spend 10 to 20 minutes per hour of study or hour of reading on my flashcards. ie for each hour of study I actually use a course or read for 40 to 50 minutes and use flashcards for the first ten to 20 mins. By 'use' I mean review vocabularly. During the 40-50 min reading/study time I will add new words I come across to my flashcards which will be reviewed during the 10-20 min of flashcard vocab review time. I do it this way because I don't actually like flashcards that much but know I need to review vocabularly. Once upon a time I used to write in unfamiliar words at the tops and sides of my pages in whatever course i'd be using. I'd then have to flick through some pages each morning before studying to review new vocab. Flashcards are therefore neater, faster to make and more versatile in terms of using SRS and other fancy things plus editing. Flashcards aren't my favourite thing, nor is reading a great deal. I'm just finding that they get in the way, but I guess ANY kind of learning will have stumbling blocks including not using flaschards at all which would mean more stumbling through reading since deliberate isolated memorisation of words would not have occurred via FC's. You've sown a seed of doubt into me this morning Jeffers, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. One thing we all seem to agree on here is reading- it would serve me well (most likely) to do more of it, and that I am comitted to. Not so sure about the super challenge, not ready for that just yet. But when it comes to the flashcards, i'm now a little hesitant on the shift to French only. Any other thoughts anyone? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 70 of 451 30 April 2014 at 3:11am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I'm quoting myself here from napoleon's log where I learned of the death of Pierre Capretz...
napoleon's log
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| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 71 of 451 30 April 2014 at 4:57am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
I don't think I can fully adapt to this strategy. While using my French learning mags which are almost midway or some kind of hybrid between a course and going dictionary/help free: I think I will add most new words with these magazines, but other general French reading I will add no more than one new word/expression per page.
You must have suspected I was up to my old habit yesterday (procrastinating).... Fortunately later in the day I took it upon myself to state that I would continue to look into tweaking my study methods only after studying... so I've already done an hour of French today, no Dutch yet tho but I'm not at home as appointments and such so some spare moments here and there... I'll look into the tech options and tnx for the offer on the tool too, I'll be in touch in that regard
I will check it out, thanks heaps emk!! 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5468 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 72 of 451 30 April 2014 at 11:01am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Here's an update of my study hours so far this year. Watching TV/film (represented by 'R') I am currently
viewing as passive and not counting it in my accumulated hours. Again my study hours of French decreased, but Dutch increased. Adding the 2 languages together the last 2 months have been stable at around 70hrs of study time. ---------------------------------- Légende / Legend C = Cours (Courses) A = Audio seulement (Audio only) L = Lecture (Reading) R = Regarder ; films français etc (Watching; French movies etc) ---------------------------------- French: Heures d'etudes 2014 (Hours of Study 2014) Date: 30/04/14 Hrs,min: C210,06 A86,40 L22,30 E0,30 Total: &n bsp; 319,46 (+ R32) Jours (days): 120 Moy. de l'an: 2,39 (3,05 in maart/March) (Yearly average) ---------------------------------- Les mois: -------- avril: (April) C34 A12,35 L1 Total: 47,35 (+ R20) Moy. du mois: 1,35 (Monthly average) ---------------------------------- mars: (March) C24,30 A24,45 L11 E0,30 Total: &n bsp; 60,45 (+ R9) Moy. du mois: 2,05 (Monthly average) ---------------------------------- février: (February) C49,55 A21,30 L7 Total: 78.25 (+ R3) Moy. du mois: 2,48 (Monthly average) ---------------------------------- janvier: (January) C101,41 A27.50 L3,30 Total: 133,01 Moy. du mois: 4,17 (Monthly average) ---------------------------------- ---------------------------------- Dutch: Studie-uren 2014 (Hours of Study 2014) Het begin (Commenced): 20/3/14 Datum (date): 30/04/14 Uren,minuten: C33 (hours,min) Totaal (total): 33 Dagen (days): 42 Gemiddelde per dag (daily average): 47min ---------------------------------- De maanden (the months): --------- april: (April): C23 Totaal: 23 (total) Maandgemiddelde (monthly average): 46min ---------------------------------- maart: (March): C10 Totaal (total): 10 ---------------------------------- Edited by PeterMollenburg on 30 April 2014 at 11:12am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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