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Total Immersion or Partial Immersion | ||
Tags: Immersion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| Cowlegend999 Groupie CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5134 days ago 72 posts - 94 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 1 of 8 17 September 2014 at 6:29am | IP Logged | ||
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Hi. I am currently learning mandarin chinese. I would estimate my level to be a low A2
for speaking and listening, and a high A2 for reading and writing. Next Summer I plan on going to China to improve my mandarin. I am trying to decide between two different options there to improve my language skills the most, while also enjoying my 4 months there. 1. Total Immersion: Study courses at a chinese university, alongside chinese students, only using chinese for the total 4 months I am there. 2. Partial Immersion: Study the chinese language, alongside other foreigners learning the chinese language. Obviously being in China I can then experience real mandarin any time I go out of the classroom. I originally thought that number 1 would be the best way to learn a language (since Im not starting from 0, and would of course compliment it with self chinese study in the evenings), but talking to a peer today, he strongly believed number 2 would help me learn faster (though I worry that much exposure to other foreigners would either cause me to get bad habits, especially pronunciation, when we use chinese, as well as cause me to use far too much English everyday). Therefore I wanted to get the opinions of others since I have never tried either of these. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5522 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 8 17 September 2014 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | ||
I think the big question here is what (2) is really like. It might be either of the following: 2a. Students study Chinese in class for several hours a day, and then spend the rest of their time interacting with other English speakers. English is used throughout the program for various purposes. Ambitious students will occasionally venture into the community and attempt to speak briefly with strangers in Chinese, but in reality, you can't learn much from shopkeepers, especially not at A2. 2b. Students study Chinese intensively during the day, with as little English used as humanly possible, then go home to Chinese-speaking host families after school, and continue to use Chinese. Any use of English for socializing, etc., is strongly discouraged. Basically, I would avoid (2a)—or anything like it—at all costs, because it almost always turns into an English bubble with minimal exposure to the target language. On the other hand, if you have access to a program like (2b), I've heard some success stories. Good examples of (2b) include some highly-immersive Alliance Française courses in France, as well as programs using a language pledge, such as those at Middlebury. These seem to have a pretty good track record. And they tend to be outrageously expensive. As far as I can tell, (2b) may be better than (1), which is definitely better than (2a). But most (2a) courses will claim to be (2b), and it may be hard to find out until you get there. Plus, at A2, you're ready to make some pretty decent gains just from being immersed full-time. So if it were me, I'd go with (1), unless I could somehow be really certain my other option was (2b) and not (2a). 8 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cowlegend999 Groupie CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5134 days ago 72 posts - 94 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 3 of 8 17 September 2014 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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@emk thanks for the response. That is my problem with 2 as well,
ideally it would be like 2b, but I feel like I wouldn't be able to be like that and instead be closer to the 2a situation you've described. Out of curiosity do you think 2b is always better than 1, or at certain language ability levels would 1 become better? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4999 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 4 of 8 17 September 2014 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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emk is totally correct.
From my shorter experience in Germany, being with other foreigners at such low level is likely to be the 2a situation. I found out I was nearly the only one (me and one Italian guy were the "weirdos" of the class) who were obviously using the outside time for immersion. The rest of the class was nervous even about the thought of going outside and asking for directions in German. Another disadvantage of being with foreigners at such a low level: Some will have better pronunciation, some worse. And usually the class tends to settle on the lower level and some mistakes typical of natives of one language become suddenly typical of everyone in the class. The more, at such low level summed up with character of the more shy classmates, you are not that likely to meaningfully practice the language in class. The conversation exercises some people choose classes for as main reason, instead of self studying, become extremely annoying, painful and fruitless in such a case. I could think of a few more but I think these are the most important exemples. I think 2b can be better for beginners or low intermediates. Other than that, 1 is the best choice, in my opinion. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5522 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 8 17 September 2014 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | ||
That's a really good question. Hmm. Let me see if I can explain what I'm thinking. Please take this with a grain of salt. The way I see it, if you're around A2, and you want to get better really quickly, there are two things you can do: A. Use the language. Basically, throw yourself into a situation where you have no choice but to get better, one where you've burnt your ships. Or as Khatzumoto put it, "Eyes open? See Japanese. Ears working? Hear Japanese." Similarly, you do all your socializing in your target language. Want to go the bathroom? Speak Chinese. Want to interact with another human being? Speak Chinese. B. Study the language. This is when you sit down with a textbook or a teacher or a tutor, and you actually study the language explicitly. We can combine these in various ways: Just A. If you have to pick only one, (A) will take you much further, much faster than (B) ever will. You're a human being, and your brain was quite literally built to learn languages. But whether you're 3 years old or 30 years old, learning languages is a ton of work, and your brain will try to avoid it if at all possible. (Seriously, 3-year-olds will avoid learning languages they deem unnecessary.) But if you leave yourself no choice, your brain will suck it up and start learning. Just B. If you only have (B), I'm sad to say, the typical outcomes are mediocrity and failure. Basically, very few people learn foreign languages rapidly in a normal classroom, or ever make it much beyond a wobbly B1. A plus some B. However, if you can combine (A) and (B) in the right way, you can learn very fast indeed. My quickest gains involved roughly 3 or 4 parts A to 1 part B. As long as you're speaking your target language, reading in it, watching TV in it, and so on, a small amount of focused study really does seem to help. So how does this apply to choosing between (1) and (2b)? 1. Pure immersion, such as an exchange program in the countryside where few people know English. 2a. Classes in-country that never really escape the English bubble. 2b. Intensive classes with no English allowed and full immersion outside of class. Well, once you're good enough that you can actually apply to a university in your target language and get admitted as a real student—not just an exchange student—then you probably only need small doses of formal study. So you can hit the books yourself, or work with a tutor once per week, or whatever. Here, (1) might be an excellent choice. Also, at truly high levels, it's going to be hard finding a class, or even a tutor. At intermediate levels, a good program along the lines of (2b) might work better than (1). But a lot would depend on the details. For example, if you're good at self-study, and you work with a Skype tutor for 3 hours per week, then maybe even the most intensive classes have nothing to offer you that you can't get from immersion. Similarly, if the intensive classes are absolutely top-notch, you get lots of individual attention, and you get real immersion with natives outside of class, than that could be pretty good, too. But in general, my recommendation is to look for (A) first: Make sure your immersion is as real as you can possibly make it. If you get that right, you can bungle (B) hopelessly and still succeed. But once you figure out (A), it can't hurt to mix in a little (B): intensive classes for a few hours per day, self-study, a good tutor on Skype, or whatever. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5120 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 6 of 8 17 September 2014 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | ||
I would think that you'd need to pass some sort of entrance exam to be allowed to study in a Chinese university, taking native-level courses. Surely an A2 level won't be enough. It would most likely have to be a B2 or above level equivalent in an HSK exam. R. == 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cowlegend999 Groupie CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5134 days ago 72 posts - 94 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 7 of 8 18 September 2014 at 1:40am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for sharing your opinions!
@hrhenry I have researched this quite a bit, and I believe (though I could very well be wrong so I would love to hear from anyone who knows more about this or has gone through this) that universities there do require an exam to study alongside native speakers. From my research, the vast majority of universities in china require passing the new hsk lvl 4 for foreign students to enroll in an undergraduate program in science/technology courses (basically anything not humanities related). The top couple universities seemed to require new hsk 5, and I found some universities that only required new hsk 3, but the reputation of a university isn't of much concern to me if I'd be studying there primarily for language immersion. Though these are the requirements to enter for a full undergraduate degree, I would be surprised if going there as an exchange student had tougher requirements (I would guess they'd be the same or slightly easier). China claims that the hsk levels 1-6 directly correlate to the CEFR levels A1-C2. Many people online from what I have seen believe China overestimates the difficult of the hsk, here is an example of one study I see referred to often http://www.fachverband- chinesisch.de/sites/default/files/FaCh2010_ErklaerungHSK.pdf (Though I personally think this study actually underestimates the test). I have tried a practice test for the hsk 3, and narrowly failed it。 I plan on taking it next month and believe I can pass since I previously was not learning hsk vocabulary, but now am focusing my new vocab on that. Ideally, I hope to be able to pass the hsk 4 sometime before the next summer (though obviously I wouldnt be able to apply for universities with this little notice). Therefore I hope my Chinese is a decent amount better than it currently is by the start of next summer, I believe it is possible to bring my abilities up to passing the hsk 4 in as little as a few months, though whether I continuously study hard enough to progress that quickly is a different question. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5756 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 8 of 8 18 September 2014 at 11:11am | IP Logged | ||
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Seriously, I have the new HSK 3 (took it after half a year of study) and I consider myself A1 when comparing my Mandarin skills to those in other languages. Nice to see that confirmed. Maybe a getting perfect pass would be more likely with A2, but not really higher. :P
Even if you can enter university with only new HSK 3 or 4 I don't think that's a good idea. You won't be able to follow lectures. Many of the exchange students I know who have B1 or B2 in German (B1 for language classes plus some classes alongside German students, B2 for classes alongside German students) told me it was very hard to follow their lectures and do the required coursework for the first couple of months, and they also found it hard to make German friends at first. I think that is something you also should be concerned about, learning how to make friends with people from that culture. Because anything can turn into a (2a) situation if you don't make native speaking friends and end up socializing mostly with other non-native speakers. Edited by Bao on 18 September 2014 at 12:47pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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