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読みたい！ TAC 2015 (Rätsel|東亜) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4657 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 81 of 91 28 May 2015 at 1:25am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I suspect that people did X, are now satisfied with their progress and have simply decided that X worked for them. From there it is just a short step to decide that X is good for everyone and must be the best way. I did do Heisig (and I still do) and I found it helpful. What this forum has taught me is that it's not for everyone and that it's perfectly possible to learn the kanji in other ways. Anki is another one of those topics. It seems to be a bit like Marmite. I don't think I could manage without it right now, but there are plenty of people who pick up their vocabulary in other ways. I think the various HTLAL debates have made it clear to me that I should be happy to state my position, without necessarily insisting that it's right for everyone. In addition, even though I'm happy with doing X to learn Y, it won't hurt to read other people's ideas and perhaps take some of them and try them for myself. I've probably been down a few dead ends too, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing: as long as I learn that whatever it was didn't work for me, then it's not time that was completely wasted.
I've always found your log to be a source of useful information and your posts are insightful and helpful. I don't recall seeing examples where you've told someone that they mustn't do X because it didn't work for you (or the opposite). So I think you should carry on as you are ... 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4657 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 82 of 91 28 May 2015 at 1:36am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think you have to be a bit careful about the competitions. There's no overall moderation: my definition of "having read a page" and yours might differ, as might our timekeeping. We could be using very different standards without either of us being dishonest. I've not participated in a 6WC but for the Super Challenge I've decided that the only sensible thing is to consider it a competition against myself. It's nice to see one's own position in the table, but it's really hard to compare oneself against people who are studying different languages or a different number of languages. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 83 of 91 31 May 2015 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, I don't take much notice myself of self assessed CEFR levels any more. Although I get the impression that a lot of people at the beginner to intermediate level seem to overestimate their level, whereas people at the advanced levels are unnecessarily modest. I've read on more than one occasion people with C2 certificates claiming that they're not really C2. Actually, I had the same feeling after getting my N2 certificate. And after passing my driving test (you mean I'm allowed to do this on my own now??) at which point I realised that the problem was with me, and not the certificate.
I think it's great when people do X, get good results, and report on their progress. It's a little overbearing when they insist that everybody else should be doing X too (but it's an understandable attitude when you are quite rightly enthusiastic about something that's worked for you). More problematic is when someone makes unfounded assumptions about what people who haven't done X must be doing instead. Or worse, when they haven't done X at all, but become evangelical about X because it sounds like a nice idea. That is the perfect set up for a pointless internet debate!
Well you know, I don't mind a bit of Marmite on my toast from time to time, but I'm not that bothered either way. As for Anki, I wish I could drop it completely, but for now it seems the most effective way to get a mini dictionary of nouns and their genders set up in my brain. The same goes for using Anki to learn to recognise kanji based vocabulary. I didn't particularly enjoy the process, but it worked. Edited by g-bod on 31 May 2015 at 7:31pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 84 of 91 31 May 2015 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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This afternoon I finished watching the final four episodes of Sex and the City. Over the last few weeks I have consumed all 6 seasons of the German dubbed version, and with it my German comprehension has improved significantly.
Apart from a few episodes in the final season, I'd already seen it in English, although it was a good few years ago, and naturally I'm familiar with the characters and the overall storylines. So watching the German dubbed version was a perfect bridge for me into the world of comprehensible native audio. I'm looking forward to taking the next step with a real German TV show (i.e. not dubbed). I was genuinely surprised at how much vocabulary stuck as I was watching the series. I seemed to learn a lot more than I would have done spending a similar amount of time with a Japanese TV show. I think the "cognate discount" may have something to do with this. Or maybe it is because I was already pretty familiar with the show in English, an experience I have never really had with Japanese TV. The only limitation is that although certain nouns are sticking through listening alone, it seems that for now, their genders are not. In any case, I love the fact that my German has reached a point where watching TV becomes both an end and a means, because now if I want to take a few days break from the textbooks I've got something fun, relaxing and useful lined up to do instead. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 85 of 91 07 June 2015 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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For a while now I have been following a small number of Twitter accounts linked to certain news sites, like Die Zeit, Spiegel, Le Monde, Libération. It's a great way of stopping me from defaulting to looking at BBC News and picking up some interesting things from French or German news instead.
I've been comfortable enough reading French newspaper articles for a while now. By comfortable, I don't mean totally awesome comprehension, rather that I can get enough of the gist to casually read something (and maybe I have a higher than average tolerance level for ambiguity). But I hit a lightbulb moment this morning when I was reading a couple of short articles on Die Zeit, when I realised that my comfort levels had upgraded themselves to pretty much match how I feel about reading Le Monde in French. Since listening to German is already easier than listening to French, I think that assuming I keep up the native input, my German comprehension is going to start outpacing my French in no time. On the one hand, I think this is great, because I've basically got a useful yardstick to compare my progress of German against right now, and I feel pretty motivated to get better at German. On the other hand, I'm starting to feel a bit uncomfortable about leaving French behind. I don't know whether this is just a case of procrastinating one language with another, or if it is more of a genuine desire to do more with French. Objectively there are compelling reasons to do both (good travel opportunities, big publishing industries, film industries, good case studies related to my work and so on) I do know that any time spent on French now will feel like stealing time from German - whereas a few months ago I could have spent native materials time on French and study time on German, now I have the capacity to fill all my spare time with German native materials if I so choose to. I think I just need to try my best to maintain progress with German for the time being. The 6WC has been great so far in keeping me on track in this respect. I think my main priority now ought to be to get another couple of books and another TV series or two under my belt to help consolidate my progress. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 86 of 91 09 June 2015 at 12:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Some words of wisdom from a taxi driver earlier today:
"German is easy. Easier than French. Just watch a lot of movies. And go to Germany. But most importantly, watch a lot of movies." OK, I can do that! 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 87 of 91 11 June 2015 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I decided to finish up my German 6WC by doing the level evaluation on Deutsche Welle for level B1.
I scored 83%, which apparently means that not only have I achieved level B1, but I am also well on my way to B2, and should seek to enroll in a B2 class. In any case, although I'm pretty confident my comprehension is in the B1 zone, my production is not really there yet. And production is something that online tests can't really test. Still, it was a fun(ish) way of wasting half an hour. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5974 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 88 of 91 14 June 2015 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think it's time for a bit more of a thorough evaluation and update. I have come to the end of a long term language commitment (German evening course) and a short term language commitment (German 6WC) almost simultaneously. Coinciding with this I have also experienced a noticeable level jump. So altogether it seems like a pretty good point to take stock of where I'm at and where I'm thinking of going next.
As for my current level, I've already mentioned that my listening and reading comprehension is really starting to come into its own. It is definitely at least B1 (and I swear I wasn't cheating when I graded my own Goethe Institut B1 practice test). More importantly, it's now at that level where I'm in the virtuous circle of comprehension improvement. I can understand enough for it to be enjoyable, so I read/listen to more stuff because I enjoy it, so I end up understanding more stuff enough for it to be enjoyable, and so on. I mentioned in my last post that I didn't think my production was in the B zone yet, but I've been challenged on that too now. I've started taking some sessions on iTalki to fill the gap now my classes are over and was somewhat surprised when a tutor told me that actually, they thought my speaking level was considerably higher than A2. OK, that was just the opinion of one person, on one day, based on one conversation, but I'll take it. I think that maybe by doing the A2 class, getting good grades, but learning a load of German in the process, I ended up with the impression that my level was a very good A2. But I guess there's a point on the continuum where you slip over from a very good A2 to a B1, and as I slipped it was so gentle I didn't even notice. So what now? I'm going to aim to sit Goethe B2 next summer. I've got good reason to believe I would pass B1 if I sat it tomorrow, so B2 in a year's time should definitely be achievable. And actually, in order to achieve this, I don't think I need to change too much in terms of what I'm doing right now. So the plan is: Reading: I just need to keep doing it. Currently reading Kafka am Strand on my Kindle, plus I'm dipping into occasional articles from Die Zeit and Der Spiegel online. Listening: Again, just need to keep it up. I'm currently watching Türkisch für Anfänger which is, hmmm, ok-ish. It's good practice though and just about entertaining enough to keep going with it. I've got a couple of German dubs of popular American TV shows I never got round to watching in English on order from amazon.de which I'm looking forward to. Watching Sex and the City in German has completely changed my attitude to watching dubs now. Speaking: I'm going to aim to take one or two iTalki sessions a week throughout the summer, and reevaluate in September when I decide whether or not to enroll in another evening class. Writing: I need to make sure my writing doesn't get left behind. It's the one skill I get most lazy about in every single language I have studied. I'm going to aim to write 100 - 200 words every week or two and post it on Lang-8 for feedback. Studying: Now that my German is good enough for me to learn stuff by exercising the four main skills above, I don't need to make studying the main event any more. This is such a relief! However, with German I am also trying to right the wrongs of the chaotic approach in which I have learned French and Japanese, so I am going to continue working through the Begegnungen textbooks. Admittedly in slightly the "wrong" order, but as long as I try to cover them all it doesn't actually matter. So, I've got chapters 7 & 8 of A1 to finish, then 5 to 8 of A2, and then I'll move onto B1. The purpose of continuing to study with these textbooks, even though my overall level may appear to be higher, is to really ensure that I'm continuing to build a solid foundation for my German. I'm also going to continue shoving vocab from the textbook into Anki and reviewing. It's still too effective to drop, although right now it's more useful for assisting active production than comprehension. It's funny how even though studying is now the least important thing on the list of things I plan to do, I still have the most to write about it. Other languages: Japanese I have to admit that I am neglecting Japanese pretty much 100% at the moment. It's reached a point where I feel like I'm being a bit dishonest having it rated as "speaking" in my profile, because at this very moment I would struggle to speak much Japanese at all. I'm counting on the fact that it wouldn't take much effort to reactivate it. I think the problem is that it is actually really difficult for me to find motivation to do things in Japanese right now. Legal streaming of Japanese TV shows is expensive and, in my experience so far, the quality of the streaming has been pretty unreliable. DVDs from amazon.co.jp are expensive to begin with, and prohibitively expensive once I have to pay import duty on them. Contrast to ordering from amazon.de where DVD prices are comparable to the UK, shipping is almost as cheap as amazon.co.uk, and there are no import duties to worry about. Reading is also a pain. Decent Kindle books, apart from Harry Potter, are almost impossible to get in the UK. Contrast with French and German books on Kindle, where I would estimate I've been able to by Kindle versions on the UK Amazon store for about 75% of the things I've searched for. Also contrast the fact that actually, it is significantly easier to read French and German on dead tree (i.e. no pop up dictionary support) anyway! Travel to Japan is something that is still on my list of things to do "one day", but it's not something I'm ever planning to do regularly. Contrast with Germany, which I have visited 3 times since 2012 and have already made plans for a two week trip this summer. Never mind the fact that I get to experience some French every time I use Eurostar, which is usually once or twice a year! There is no real link between Japanese and my work, however I've already found uses for being able to read German at work. Since the Japanese friends I made in my home town have all moved back home, my only options for conversation are to seek out online language exchanges, which I am not motivated to do, since I have no other reason to improve my speaking. I don't have German or French speaking friends here either, but the difference is that I've got so much more motivation to use these languages in other ways. I started learning Japanese motivated mainly by intellectual curiosity. I've learned loads on the way, which has helped not only in terms of learning other languages, but also in terms of the way I approach dealing with problem solving in other areas of my life. So, I'm glad I did it and have no regrets. But equally, I have no regrets about putting Japanese on a more long term hiatus. French I still want to get back to French. Currently my French practice mainly involves following a few Twitter accounts and reading a few news articles, which really is the path of least resistance for me. Last night I watched a French film at the local arthouse cinema. I don't think it counts, there were subtitles. Anyway, I don't want French to detract from German, but at the same time I don't want to abandon French completely. I think I will leave formal study of French until I've finished building that strong foundation in German - and then maybe I can apply lessons learned there to help build a decent foundation in French too. I'm going to finish Kafka am Strand before I pick up another French novel, but maybe it would be cool if I could alternate which language I read novels in in future. Also, I want to watch Sex and the City in French, but I'm going to wait until the afterglow of watching it in German has worn off. That was a massive post, so here's the TL:DR version: German: Currently B1, aiming for B2 with certificate, got a plan. Japanese: It was fun, but time to move on. No regrets. French: Yes, but I can't let it distract me from German. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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