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Clarity’s 2015 Log for Español | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Clarity Groupie United States Joined 3514 days ago 85 posts - 107 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 17 of 32 12 May 2015 at 1:29am | IP Logged | ||
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Hi Cavesa! Yes, now that I've watched some more episodes of Angel o Demonio, I'm worried about that little girl too! Is it me, or is there a voice-over actress dubbed over the little girl's real voice? I'm hoping that she only has move her lips a little bit and smile evilly. It would be freaky if she fully understood all of her lines.
So what did I learn this week in FSI? I was back to driving a lot again and finished 3 units! I'm now on Unit 17. 1. Like most political animals, the Consul is not exactly a truthful guy. He flat out lied to his wife about Molina never going to mass. While this made him seem like a first class loser, it may also show that he's perfect for his day job? 2. Beware of the health affects of hard core partying. Juanita isn't sure if she can handle the 3 parties a week, but Molina and his liver have grown accustomed to it. Let's hope they can file for workman's compensation after they've pickled their vital organs. All the other stuff Spanish TV - 13.5 hours FSI/Platiquemos - 9 hours Duolingo - 3 hours italki tutor - 2 hours Grand total: 27.5 I've been watching Angel o Demonio with no subtitles first, then English subtitles later. It takes me a while to get through one, but they are so much fun. And sometimes instructional! There was an episode about a man ruining his life through bowling. If only I'd seen that before a friend invited me to a bowling benefit. I thought I look liked this... 
but really looked like this... 
and then I ended up slipping and falling right on my tuckus! 
Epic fail in the bowling department! And I could have avoided it all if I had steered clear of that bowling alley, just like the poor character, Mario, in Angel o Demonio. It may be a bit premature, but I feel like I'm understanding the spoken Spanish around me better. I'm hoping these results stick around for a while and aren't just a fleeting stage. 250 Hour Goal 67 hours down, 183 hours to go! Edited by Clarity on 12 May 2015 at 1:33am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4282 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 18 of 32 14 May 2015 at 5:34am | IP Logged | ||
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About the subjunctive, I notice that many Anglophones, and somehow by extension,
speakers of Germanic languages have problems with the subjunctive. I think that because in the Germanic languages, the indicative is used quite often, and the subjunctive rarely. This seems to be the case with English, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish (German has the two Konjunctiv's and Icelandic and Faroese having a likewise very active subjunctive). Thus, I would encourage special notice towards the subjunctive with a grammar book because the subjunctive in Spanish, as well as the other Romance languages, is extremely important. Proper Spanish can only be spoken by knowing well the subjunctive. When I learnt and started Spanish in secondary school at 13, it took a seriously long time to learn the subjunctive because it was considered "advanced". But in real Spanish, this is far from the truth. The subjunctive is nothing advanced, a native Hispanophone baby speaks with both the indicative and subjunctive without difficulty because they learn it together. This is what I see is the problem with our Anglophone secondary school systems. They always teach the indicative first, and then after years of this stuff, introduce this "weird" subjunctive and everyone gets confused. So I think that you should learn the subjunctive well as soon as possible, because this big gap in time between learning the indicative first and then the subjunctive is what I see about Spanish students struggle because they are too accustomed to the indicative mood. The subjunctive (present, present perfect, imperfect, pluperfect) in Spanish is so crucial that I would say that lagging in the subjunctive in Spanish would be like having a car which has excellent transmission and steering (indicative) but with no wheels (the subjunctive). One cannot function without the other. To give an example, take the very simple sentence that a child might say to their parent in any language: "I want you to buy me an ice cream" which has no subjunctive in English, but does in Spanish: Quiero que me compres un helado So what I mean is that even saying very simple things requires the subjunctive. There is often no way to avoid it. I am not sure about how FSI handle the subjunctive, but if you can get one of those grammar workbooks in a bookstore where it handles specifically the subjunctive, or a few, it helps dramatically. Thanks for dropping by my log. I am following yours too. ¡Te deseo ánimo! Edited by 1e4e6 on 14 May 2015 at 5:53am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5001 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 19 of 32 14 May 2015 at 9:04am | IP Logged | ||
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I agree about the subjunctive. As it doesn't exist in Czech (I suppose in no slavic
language either), the teachers of French spend as much time scaring people with it as teaching it. Fortunately, it is even more crutial for Spanish so there is no way for the courses to avoid it. What helped me is the negative imperativ, which is basically the same form. And tons of tv series and books, I suppose that is gonna drill the hardest part (all the situations to use it) into my head without much pain. FSI is more and more a thriller it seems. And thanks for the joke n.4, it was so stereotypically American and awesome :-D I don't think the actress will be saved just by not knowing the lines. Perhaps she even knows them, isn't she required to move her lips at least? I'd say the voice over is just to put there a more demoniac voice. Well, I don't know much about film making. But since there are animal rights organisations that take care about animals not being harmed during movie making, perhaps there are such child protectors as well? :-D 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5199 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 20 of 32 14 May 2015 at 11:44am | IP Logged | ||
I also agree that the subjunctive tends to be one of these things that people essentially find difficult because they are told that they should find it difficult.
In a way it's just as bad for many English speakers, who are made to believe that English does not have a subjunctive and it's some sort of alien thing. In reality, English not only does have subjunctive, but the logic is pretty similar. Ok, in English we usually avoid it in favour of alternative constructions, while in Romance languages it's far more common, with more awkward verb forms and varying usage between each language... but still, it's there! Phrases like "I demand that you be there" may not exactly be everyday language, but understanding that Romance languages use the same structure gets you most of the way there. I vaguely remember Russian using a very similar construction with the past tense, like "I want that you were there". I've no idea whether Czech and other Slavic languages do that too, and it's been years since I looked at Russian so I might not even be remembering correctly. But if that's the case, then the obvious starting point would be to explain that it's like that but with a special verb form? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5001 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 21 of 32 14 May 2015 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, we've got it too "Chci, abys tam byl." But it is being explained end analyzed
differently. I believe the main difference is, that the verb form "byl" is not something specific and different from "normal" forms of the verb. If the verb form was different (imaginary nonexisting weird example form: if it was "bol" in such conditional sentences), it would be exactly the subjunctiv, now that I think of it. So, the "logic" of a typical Czech student learning romance languages is something like "why the hell do they need different verb forms for these sentences while we can do just fine without such fancy nonsense". Yes, it is more common in English than people normally believe. An example I was given once were the American newspapers. In cases allowing both indicative and subjunctive, a american journalist will more likely you the subjunctive than a brittish journalist. It is one of the cases where the American English is more conservative than the Brittish English. I wonder how much more would students learn at school if they teachers weren't wasting time and demotivating them by scaring them. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4282 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 22 of 32 16 May 2015 at 12:16am | IP Logged | ||
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In English correspondence, somewhat responded to me with "Should there be any
questions..." whereby "be" is the present subjunctive. In the response I happened to also have a past subjunctive, "Were it so..." which is a more formal alternative to "If it were so...", which also takes the subjunctive in Spanish, «Si hubiese sido así...» and if desired, the very formal French construction with the imparfait du subjonctif, «Eût-il été comme ça...». However, "I need you to be there" in English is more used than things like, "I need that you be there", which is basically the only option in Spanish. Using an infinitive like in English is totally wrong, regardless of register. Edited by 1e4e6 on 16 May 2015 at 12:17am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Clarity Groupie United States Joined 3514 days ago 85 posts - 107 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 23 of 32 31 May 2015 at 3:50am | IP Logged | ||
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Whew! It's been quite a few weeks! I was super busy at work and didn't have as much time for Spanish and logging as I'd hoped.
Thanks 1e4e6 for your insight into the teaching of subjunctive. I think you are right that beginning to intermediate Spanish learners start to perceive it as this mysterious, scary, grammar monster. It would have been nice to learn it from the beginning with the indicative, since it is so crucial to Spanish. Cavesa, I have noticed a difference in my listening ability since I started watching tv series. Because of some of the stressful things happening with my students, I decided to put Angel o Demonio on hold until the summer when I can just enjoy it. I've switched to the Colombian version of Soy Betty, La Fea. A good belly laugh can be medicinal at the end of a long day! Gary B., I completely agree about finding it difficult because we are told it is difficult. If it had been taught as a natural extension of the indicative, I wonder if I'd have "Subjunctive Anxiety." What did I learn in FSI/Platiquemos? I learned that Consul Harris's first name is Bert, which automatically reminds me of this beloved character from my childhood. 
I'm also wondering why Mrs. Harris was so worried about the inspection in Customs. It made me wonder if she was a "mule" for some drug cartel. Also, poor Juanita was late AGAIN! I'm wondering if this is going to be a running joke in Spanish FSI. Molina will always be trying to hurry that gal up and she will never be ready. My FSI/Platiquemos numbers are low. There were a few days when I was so tired, I couldn't concentrate on the recording. After 15 minutes of "spacing out", I'd realize that I had just missed an entire FSI lesson. I decided to press stop until I was ready to listen, but I'm worried this might become a habit. Work is always busy and it will always wear me out on some days. In the good news, I finished the Duolingo Spanish skills tree! Although I appreciated the fun, addictive format, I can understand why many have said it's best for A1-B1. Just when things started to get interesting in the subjunctive, Duolingo's tree stopped short. We can only hope for a Duolingo Spanish Tree-The Sequel in the future. I've really enjoyed the Colombian version of Soy Betty, La Fea. I adore Betty! Her combination of hard-core nerdiness and intelligent competence make her a joy to watch. I can't completely like Armando though. It's hard to have a lot of sympathy for a character when he is introduced as a serial cheater who has unenthusiastically changed his ways. I am in the beginning episodes, so maybe he will grow on me as time goes by. 
I still enjoy my Skype lessons and appreciate my hard-working teacher. I find that the structure of my lessons keep me focused and consistent during a long week. I'm hoping I can increase my hours with him eventually. 250 Hour Goal FSI: 11 hours Italki tutor: 6 hours Duolingo: 10 hours Spanish TV: 10 (Mostly Soy Betty La Fea) Total: 37 104 down, 146 to go 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4282 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 24 of 32 31 May 2015 at 4:13am | IP Logged | ||
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Well it is not really an extenson of the indicative, more like a twin sibling. One
cannot exist without the other in the language. Having been a student in formal Spanish classes at school when I was 13 to 17, the first 3 years were almost devoid of the subjunctive. As I said, even a baby learns the subjunctive and the indicative at the same time, because this is natural progression of how a Hispanophone learns their own language. It would be like a driving instructor who told their student, "First I teach you how to steer. But I do not teach you proper acceleration and braking nor how to change gears until a year later. That is for advanced students." they would be absolutely insane. This is how I see analogous to teachers delaying the subjunctive way longer than ever necessary. My friends' teachers did it too. Unfortunately they also delay the subjunctive in all Romance language classes, be it Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Italian. All at the same time whilst the baby whose parents have native language as Spanish or any of the other Romance languages is I would bet, fully functional equally in the indicative and subjunctive by age 5. Edited by 1e4e6 on 31 May 2015 at 4:15am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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