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  Tags: Lingua franca
 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
42 messages over 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6  Next >>
Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7158 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 33 of 42
13 March 2010 at 6:47pm | IP Logged 
cordelia0507 wrote:
All these comments about Eastern Europeans hating Russian are largely unfounded.

There are probably a few who still have a thorn in their side and can't distinguish between a language and an ideology they did not like. Most probably don't care about it at all and are too busy trying to learn English.

But in my Russian studies I have found that most of the SERIOUS students of Russian are Polish, Serb, Croatian, Bulgarian etc.

We just don't encounter these people on this particular forum because they do not choose an English-language forum. But they are definitely out there, there are lots of them, and they pick up Russian three times faster than me. (However obviously they were forced to prioritise English in most cases; not an 'optional' language in this world. So Russian is the second foreign language for them, not the first.)

These people are smart enough to spot a language that is of the same language family as their own and therefore faster for them to learn, plus gives them access to an enormous area and 350 mil. speakers at least, not to mention a market that can only expand.

If you like to live in the past, watch an old Hollywood spy movie or pick-up an old Soviet movie.... But don't mix up a useful and interesting language with an ideology that is 20 years out of date from a European perspective.

You might as well say that you won't study English because you dislike British or US imperialism, Spanish because Franco was an insular dictator or French because Napoleon terrorised Europe... Not to mention what you might say about German, Chinese....


I don't think that a modern aversion or wariness by say Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians et al. toward Russian or Russia should be interpreted as hatred. That's too black-and-white. Some of my Eastern European friends actually study or studied Russian and started their studies after communism fell, so it'd be unfair to think that everyone hates Russia or Russian or clings tightly to old grudges. They're hardly Russophobic caricatures as portrayed sometimes by extreme Russian nationalists who think that everyone outside Russia is out to get Russia.

On the other hand, there is a sense in Eastern Europe outside the former USSR that Russia is there and will be there for some time but so long as everyone in the region respects each other's space, there's no real problem (occasional sniping aside). The idea however of imposing Russian by fiat as a lingua franca in Eastern Europe to conform to lichtrausch's vision of regional lingua francas would certainly face a lot of resistance precisely because it would be reminiscent of the bad old days and violate the idea of respecting everyone's space. Besides, the trends as observed in Eastern Europe today aren't conducive to acceptance or voluntary adoption of Russian as a lingua franca in the region.
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cordelia0507
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5840 days ago
1473 posts - 2176 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*
Studies: German, Russian

 
 Message 34 of 42
13 March 2010 at 6:58pm | IP Logged 
Agree Chung. I think he was just trying to be provocative with his comments or else he totally missed 19th century history in school. In fact, forcing ANY language on anyone is not a good idea.

(Although I would be tempted to make an exception for Esperanto if I was the dictator of the EU (vote for me!!!) At least it's so easy that you'd be done in a about 3 years, so it would be a lot less painful than school ESL.
1 person has voted this message useful



lichtrausch
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5962 days ago
525 posts - 1072 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Japanese
Studies: Korean, Mandarin

 
 Message 35 of 42
13 March 2010 at 8:47pm | IP Logged 
While some good points have been made, there are also a bunch of straw mans being thrown out there such as:

tractor wrote:
The idea that the rest of Western Europe adopt
German as a lingua franca because some youngsters in Germany might think that it is more fun or useful to
learn Russian instead of English is ridiculous.

And I don't want to waste time addressing straw mans.

Apparently I wasn't clear about how the regional lingua francas should be implemented. I don't think they should be forced down countries' throats. It's the kind of idea that can be discussed in a regional forum and then implemented at national level by countries who think it a reasonable policy. Like with Esperanto or any lingua franca, if even a couple countries adapt the plan, then the momentum from that will increase the importance of the language and maybe cause an avalanche effect if the circumstances are right.
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tractor
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 5455 days ago
1349 posts - 2292 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan
Studies: French, German, Latin

 
 Message 36 of 42
13 March 2010 at 9:10pm | IP Logged 
I guess you have run out of arguments since you start complaining about straw men.
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vb
Octoglot
Senior Member
Afghanistan
Joined 6424 days ago
112 posts - 135 votes 
Speaks: English, Romanian, French, Polish, Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian, Swedish

 
 Message 37 of 42
13 March 2010 at 11:03pm | IP Logged 
English has been the lingua franca of science for a while and will be very hard to supplant. In fact, it could be argued that it would be ethically best to help buttress its pre-eminent position, given the benefits that come from exchange of ideas - think communication between medical researchers...
1 person has voted this message useful



lichtrausch
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5962 days ago
525 posts - 1072 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Japanese
Studies: Korean, Mandarin

 
 Message 38 of 42
13 March 2010 at 11:24pm | IP Logged 
vb wrote:
 English has been the lingua franca of science for a while and will be very hard to supplant. In fact, it could be argued that it would be ethically best to help buttress its pre-eminent position, given the benefits that come from exchange of ideas - think communication between medical researchers...

On the other hand, who knows how many potentially great East Asian scientists never got into uni or were never noticed because they did poorly on the English section of a university entrance exam. In order to be successful in today's science world, you need to be good in your field AND good at English. Maybe not such a big deal for most Europeans, but definitely a difficult affair for most East Asians.
2 persons have voted this message useful



John Smith
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 6044 days ago
396 posts - 542 votes 
Speaks: English*, Czech*, Spanish
Studies: German

 
 Message 39 of 42
14 March 2010 at 3:00am | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:
cordelia0507 wrote:
All these comments about Eastern Europeans hating Russian are largely unfounded.

There are probably a few who still have a thorn in their side and can't distinguish between a language and an ideology they did not like. Most probably don't care about it at all and are too busy trying to learn English.

But in my Russian studies I have found that most of the SERIOUS students of Russian are Polish, Serb, Croatian, Bulgarian etc.

We just don't encounter these people on this particular forum because they do not choose an English-language forum. But they are definitely out there, there are lots of them, and they pick up Russian three times faster than me. (However obviously they were forced to prioritise English in most cases; not an 'optional' language in this world. So Russian is the second foreign language for them, not the first.)

These people are smart enough to spot a language that is of the same language family as their own and therefore faster for them to learn, plus gives them access to an enormous area and 350 mil. speakers at least, not to mention a market that can only expand.

If you like to live in the past, watch an old Hollywood spy movie or pick-up an old Soviet movie.... But don't mix up a useful and interesting language with an ideology that is 20 years out of date from a European perspective.

You might as well say that you won't study English because you dislike British or US imperialism, Spanish because Franco was an insular dictator or French because Napoleon terrorised Europe... Not to mention what you might say about German, Chinese....


I don't think that a modern aversion or wariness by say Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians et al. toward Russian or Russia should be interpreted as hatred. That's too black-and-white. Some of my Eastern European friends actually study or studied Russian and started their studies after communism fell, so it'd be unfair to think that everyone hates Russia or Russian or clings tightly to old grudges. They're hardly Russophobic caricatures as portrayed sometimes by extreme Russian nationalists who think that everyone outside Russia is out to get Russia.

On the other hand, there is a sense in Eastern Europe outside the former USSR that Russia is there and will be there for some time but so long as everyone in the region respects each other's space, there's no real problem (occasional sniping aside). The idea however of imposing Russian by fiat as a lingua franca in Eastern Europe to conform to lichtrausch's vision of regional lingua francas would certainly face a lot of resistance precisely because it would be reminiscent of the bad old days and violate the idea of respecting everyone's space. Besides, the trends as observed in Eastern Europe today aren't conducive to acceptance or voluntary adoption of Russian as a lingua franca in the region.


Just because someone is learning a language doesn't mean he or she likes it. Some people learn languages for pragmatic reasons.
1 person has voted this message useful



vb
Octoglot
Senior Member
Afghanistan
Joined 6424 days ago
112 posts - 135 votes 
Speaks: English, Romanian, French, Polish, Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian, Swedish

 
 Message 40 of 42
14 March 2010 at 9:55am | IP Logged 
lichtrausch wrote:
On the other hand, who knows how many potentially great East Asian scientists never got into uni or were never noticed because they did poorly on the English section of a university entrance exam. In order to be successful in today's science world, you need to be good in your field AND good at English. Maybe not such a big deal for most Europeans, but definitely a difficult affair for most East Asians.


This is why English should be taught from the age of school entry there (and everywhere). Our progress as a species depends on everyone's participation in the most important fields of inquiry - every school leaver being fluent maximises the number and quality of students entering these fields (language is no longer a barrier to entry) and settling on a lingua franca maximises communication between researchers.


1 person has voted this message useful



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